What do you need to be your best creative self? Where and how do you do your most innovative, exciting, unique-to-you work? And how can you take intentional steps to give yourself that “maximum creativity environment” so that you are able to do that kind of work? The answers to these questions are going to be different for every artist and every creative listening to this podcast. After all, what you need to be creative is different from what I need to be creative. But today, let’s listen in on one creative entrepreneur’s journey to foster her ideal artistic environment as she worked to give herself the gift of creativity.

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Hello, thriving artists, and welcome to episode 63 of the Starving Artist No More podcast. I’m so glad you’re here with me for this discussion about how you can give yourself the gift of creativity.

Today’s episode is an interview with Lisa Cahn, the owner of Prose Garden Productions, a boutique, spoken-word production company. I can’t wait to share our conversation with you. Lisa is one of the faculty members for the upcoming Thriving Narrators Retreat in Cincinnati, OH, which is taking place August 22-25, 2024, less than a month from when this podcast is originally releasing. If you’re listening to this episode right when it releases, you actually still have a few days to register for the retreat if you’re interested. Registration will be open through the end of July 2024. If you’re an audiobook narrator, I’d love to have you join us. You can get all of the details on my website, www.StarvingArtistNoMore.com.

And if you’re listening to this episode way in the future and the 2024 narrators retreat is long past, I still encourage you to visit my website. Who knows, the exact coaching or workshop opportunity that you’re looking for might be available for you. That web address again is www.StarvingArtistNoMore.com.

This will actually be my last podcast episode for a little while as I take a brief break from the podcast to focus on the final planning activities for the upcoming retreat. There are a lot of retreat-related tasks on my plate in the next six weeks, and in planning my own workflow, I knew I needed extra time for those tasks. So for my regular listeners, this is to let you know that I’ll be absent from your podcast player feed for a few weeks here in the run up to the retreat, but I promise I’ll be back once the retreat has taken place and I’m back to my normally scheduled activities.

My choice to step away from this podcast for a brief period and to give myself time to prioritize other creative pursuits actually relates perfectly to my recent conversation with Lisa Cahn, which you’ll be listening in on in just a few minutes.

In my case, I’ve taken a realistic look at my responsibilities and creative commitments over the next two months, I’ve evaluated what resources I need to be able to complete those responsibilities with artistic excellence, and I’ve made the intentional decision to pause one of my creative pursuits – this podcast – so that I have time to prioritize a different creative pursuit – the Thriving Narrators Retreat. I’m giving myself the time I need – creating the environment that I need – to be my best creative self.

On a much smaller scale, my situation exactly mirrors Lisa’s creative entrepreneurship journey. Until very recently, Lisa was a casting director at one of the Big 5 publishing houses. For those of you not in the audiobook industry, this means that Lisa was absolutely at the top of her game, in an incredibly high-profile artistic position at an influential company. Because of her position, she had an incredible amount of industry prestige. From the outside, it seemed like Lisa had reached the absolute pinnacle of creative success in her creative industry.

But that was not Lisa’s internal experience of her artistic opportunities. Lisa’s story, as you’ll hear, is one of stepping away from the corporate publishing industry to become a self-employed creative entrepreneur. She took these steps and made these decisions very intentionally, as a way to give herself the time she needed to be creative, to give herself the gift of creativity.

As author Cal Newport points out in his book Deep Work, doing our best creative work takes time. We have to have time to sink into the creative process if we want to craft something that is truly unique and innovative and reflective of our best selves. “Deep work,” the phrase Newport uses to describe this kind of focused, artistic work, takes time.

For Lisa, she found that in her position at the large publishing company, she didn’t have the time that she personally needed to be her best creative self. And so she chose to do something else. She chose to create around herself the environment she needed to do her deep, artistic work. She chose to give herself the gift of creativity.

Now, as you listen to Lisa’s journey, I do want to remind you that every artist’s path to creative entrepreneurship, to self-employed artistry, is going to be different. My journey is not Lisa’s journey is not your journey. I do think it’s helpful to hear how another artist made that transition, but remember that your creative entrepreneurship path does not need to look anything like Lisa’s to still be completely valid.

Indeed, whatever level of the self-employed creative entrepreneurship life you want is absolutely wonderful! I sometimes have the joy of working with artists who do their creative work with part of their working hours, and do something completely different with their other working hours. They’re part-time creative entrepreneurs, and they’re completely happy with their balance of work in various areas and industries. The mix of the creative and non-creative works for them. Yet sometimes these same artists express a bit of shame or hesitation around the fact that they’re not (quote-unquote) “full time” with their artistic work.

Let me say right here and right now that, no matter what your creative entrepreneurship journey is, and no matter how many work hours you spend on your artistic work, and no matter whether or not you also work in other areas, your creative entrepreneurship journey is valid.

If you want to be full time as an artist, if that is where you will be able to be your best artistic self, then pursue full time creative work and do the things that will help you achieve that. If you want to be part time as an artist, if that is where you will be able to be your best artistic self, then pursue part time creative work and do the things that will help you achieve that. Your creative business runs on your creative energy, and so you are free to pursue the creative process that best fits you!

My background is in classical music, and two of my favorite classical composers are Alexander Borodin (a Russian composer from the 19th century) and Charles Ives (a 20th century American composer). Both were incredibly influential and basically spawned whole movements in classical composition. And both were part time composers. In his day job, Borodin was a chemist (and actually made some really important contributions to early organic chemistry), and Ives was an insurance actuary. They both fit their musical work around the framework of their day jobs, basically working as composers in their spare time, and the world of classical music was completely changed in both instances as a result of their "spare time" creativity.

All that to say, being part time in your artistic work doesn't mean that your work somehow doesn't have value or isn't worthy. What matters is that you are pursuing the creative process that fulfills you and brings you joy, whatever that means for you. Give yourself the gift of the circumstances you need to be creative, whatever those circumstances look like for you.

In Lisa’s case, she used her business decisions to give herself the gift of creative intentionally, so that she would have the space and time she needs to be creative. She embraced the way her artistic inspiration manifests, which is entirely unique to her, and took steps in her creative entrepreneurship career that would give her the time she needed for that process to happen.

As you listen to my conversation with Lisa, I encourage you to be open about your creative needs. Regardless of whether those needs stem from a differing ability, or some sort of neurodivergence, or just the very nature of your unique creative process, respect those needs. Acknowledge what you need to be the best artist you can be, and take steps to create that environment for yourself. Give yourself the gift of creativity.

Let’s listen in on my conversation with Lisa Cahn.

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Jennifer: I am thrilled to have with me today Lisa Cahn. Lisa is owner of Prose Garden Productions, a spoken word production company, and she's going to be one of the faculty members at the thriving Narrator Retreat. And Lisa, I'm so thankful that you're here with me for this conversation today.

Lisa: Oh, Jennifer, thank you so much. I'm flattered to be here, and I'm really happy you asked me to to talk. And you haven't given up on me because I talk so much and use up so much time. But I'm really excited to be here. And, you know, I just I love this industry. I love talking to people. I love talking and well, I have a lot to say.

Jennifer: I always enjoy hearing what you have to say. So let's dive into my first question for you. So great. You recently made a decision to step away from the corporate side of the audiobook world, and you were working for one of the big five publishing companies. So it was not a small little, you know, outfit. You were working for a very large publishing corporation, and now instead, you are focusing on your own audiobook production company, Prose Garden Productions. As I mentioned in the intro, I'd love for you to share what led you to make that decision? How has that change impacted your creative process?

Lisa: Well, wow, that is a wonderful question. And it has. It was a very difficult decision, but I have not regretted it at all. And I'm very pleased. And it was a long time coming in a way. I am in the process of adjusting. It was so recent that I'm sort of still working out the kinks of things, but the on the other hand, things had already been in in the process because I had there was a little bit of overlap because because I've been doing this for so long. It's been 29 years. I've had many authors and some small publishers. Some medium sized publishers approach me over the years. And of course I had to say no to many projects, but sometimes, you know, evenings and weekends when I had a moment which was very rare, I could help an author out or whatever. So I started realizing things, you know, would be okay. I'm also at a place in my life where I was ready to, you know, honestly, producing audiobooks for that long, I was really ready to take that as a base and start exploring what other options, what other ways I can use the skill set and the context and, and sort of see what else. If I think out of the box, what else could happen. So but as far as that decision, you know, with so many titles to produce annually, to be perfectly frank, I was I was struggling to some degree with work life balance.

Lisa: And, because as I said, I was also at the same time being approached by independent authors and, and some publishers to independently produce their audio editions, I decided to take the leap after so many years of producing sort of, frankly, around the clock. I really miss the idea of having more time to be more intentional about this process, and I really want to give each title the attention it deserves. Quite frankly, that's the least we can do for an author who spends, on average, you know, five years, you know, maybe 3 to 10 years, who knows? I don't know how long, but I'm guessing at least a couple of years of daily writing. So, you know, I really feel like I want to honor that writing as a writer myself, as somebody who comes from journalism, who ultimately would like to also do some writing, which, by the way, was another motivation. In addition to ramping up Prose Garden Productions, I'd like to write a few things myself. I have some nonfiction things in the works I'm pitching some story ideas, sort of exercising those old journalism muscles. But I'm also I've got a play and a novel halfway through. So, you know, I'm so excited to be able to honor the writing and the authors and their babies, you know, and this has bought me some more time to think outside the box in terms of sound design, incorporating elements that might stray a bit from the traditional audio book setup.

Lisa: You know, top and tail music and everything and one, one or several voices in between. There's so much more we can do. And this is, in a weird way, a late learning curve for me because I came from such. I'm a visual learner, so this is an oddball. It's odd that I ended up doing this. So on the one hand, it's really fun for me to learn things about sound design and all of this because it doesn't actually come after all these years. It's it's I've learned a lot, but I'm now now with pros and productions, I can really, really take the time to just breathe some life into a project. I'm not saying I didn't before, of course we did. But for me personally, because of my neurology, which we'll talk about, you know, and just, you know, my family obligations and this kind of thing. I'm really excited to be more intentional and really sit down with a manuscript or whatever it is a screenplay, a play, whatever the IP, whatever the property is, and really say and sit and talk with the author and the narrator as a team and say, let's talk about what we're doing here, what is what is our overall, who's the market? What are we going for? What is the feeling, what are the feelings we want to evoke in the listener? Like, this kind of thought was hard for me.

Lisa: I'm not going to speak for other people. I will say that. I think it was a little extra harder for me because I had, because I've been doing this for so long. I did have a higher workload than, I think, some of my colleagues, but I also, and some of them may argue with that. I'm not sure that's entirely fair, but let's just say that it's not just about title count, it's about what kind of a book it is. And if it's a non-fiction book with, you know, 700 audio drops, it's different than a romance novel with top and tail and one voice who somebody who records at home. It's a very different process anyway, so I'm really excited and I'm glad I waited because I needed to get my personal life, my ducks in a row to do this, but I'm also like, oh my God, I can't believe I'm doing this now. It's like, you know, it's there's a lot going on. So, part of me wishes I had always been doing this, but it's it's great timing because I think the paradigms are changing. I think people are looking to take more control. People are self-publishing and now their self audio publishing or or they're working with their thinking out of the box. So I'm very excited to be a part of that process.

Jennifer: I am delighted for you that you're making this change and finding it so incredibly rewarding. And just on a personal level, I knew that you had a journalism background and did you know some writing from a journalistic perspective, but I had absolutely no idea that you were working on writing books and the play and so forth. That is really cool.

Lisa: There's so much. Well, that's the other thing is, like, I almost hesitate to talk about it because now my my challenge right now is three fold. I want to the work life balance needs to be addressed because I am very much the sandwich generation. My you know, I have a I have an 18 year old son who is a rising sophomore in college, which who still needs, you know, a lot of parenting. And I'm a single mom. And I also have elderly parents who have their own issues, and I'm trying to be attentive to them. So there's that. And then there's my own very personal, creative stuff that I want to do, which will be secondary to my income producing, you know, Rose Garden Productions is is a business. And I want to be as creative as I can there. But it is a business. And then there's just things that have been percolating in my head for years. I mean, I started writing a novel in 1997, and the characters in this novel have been literally begging me for years to continue. You know, it's very rare. You know, I know creative people. I never used to believe this, but it's happened to me enough times now that the muse is a real thing, and it's like I've written stories that have wholesale just like come out of my my fingers onto the keyboard without me even understanding how it's happening.

Lisa: And that's happened a number of times. It sounds so mystical and it kind of is. And this particular novel has taken so long that the point of view of the characters has transitioned from a young woman in her 20s, which I was then to, you know, a middle aged single mom, because they're both of those characters are in the story. But my my point of view has changed. And in a weird way, I'm grateful because now I can really. Because back then when I started, I thought, oh, I guess I better go interview some single moms who are middle aged and now I don't need to because I am one. And ironically, this character, the older character, has a teenage son and I have a teenage son. It just happened to work out that way. So anyway, that's just one of several projects I have in the works of different genres, but my right now, they're still sort of sitting on the shelf mentally because I really want to ramp up and I'm in the process.

Lisa: I've got a bunch of irons, several irons in the fire with with PGP that are a little bit out of the box, like I'm very interested in exploring having been a producer for so long, which means taking a property that has already been determined by someone else to be worthy. I am really excited to learn about sort of filtering and acquisition process, like how do you find that gem in the rough among all the unproduced IP out there? How do you determine whether it's worthy, whether it's sellable, entertaining, eloquent, you know, affordable, all of those things. And how does that actually work? How does it work legally? How does it work production wise? How does it work in all these different ways? And I love the idea of having a little more say in what I'm working on and what goes out there and what should be out there, or what my author and I or the writer and I think, you know, so I'm really excited about that. I'm super excited about all these different elements. I'm right, very much in the process of balancing all of this and, sure, that's what's happening.

Jennifer: Sure. I love that you made business decisions in a very intentional way to allow yourself more creative freedom. You found yourself in a business place that was constricting and causing some level of burnout for you. It really was. So you used your business decisions to put some creative intentionality back in your life. And I think that's a beautiful thing.

Lisa: It's scary, and I think it's something a lot of people want to do, and the timing has to be right. But I really was very ready. And and, you know, to be honest, I was always a little, tiny bit I was very privileged to be able to be a tiny bit. I don't want to use the word reckless, but one notch safer than reckless, like experimental, like when I the very first, because I had been an in-house audiobook producer in the mid 90s, and I actually left that company to go independent with the same thought in mind and at that time in in-house position. You know, I've seen the whole gamut. It started out very much as a very project management, but the creative stuff, we absolutely hired other people to do that. And remember, back then abridging audiobooks was thoroughly acceptable and not only acceptable, but necessary because it wasn't really the digital era. So it was very expensive to put out on cassette or even CD.

Jennifer: You were limited by the technology.

Lisa: Yeah, basically if you produce something on a bridge, it would have to have a 75. The price point wouldn't work. Nobody's going to buy a. In those days, nobody's going to pay $75, which was what you would have to charge for, you know, a 15 hour audio book. And so abridging every almost every audio book was three, 6 or 9 hours and very rarely went beyond that. So I really wanted to do that. My my true love is words. Manuscripts, writing, line editing, tweaking, tightening. It's the same muscle that you use when you do, you know, like the New York Times crossword or the Bee or whatever. Like, I love that feeling of tightening, tweaking. I love editing, love it. And I really enjoyed that process. And I know everybody loved to badmouth it. But the truth is, yes, sometimes something should God know we don't want to abridge. But sometimes you know what? Manuscripts are bloated. Editors don't have time to edit. They're too busy acquiring properties. So it was actually I kind of miss it. I think sometimes it could still benefit. So anyway, I'm very long winded, but I'm trying to say is I actually chose to leave so that I could do more so I could abridge, so I could produce outside work like I wanted sort of that creative latitude, which I wasn't getting in-house.

Lisa: And I was it was a pretty reckless decision back then, because I pretty much starved for the next 20 years until I ended up getting a call and going back in house, which was great timing. So now I'm sort of returning to that world, but it's it's very different now and all the rules have changed and my confidence levels are much higher. And I know everybody in the industry. Well, I mean, I know a lot of people and I'm not. I'm really enjoying it. I'm really enjoying the process and for as long as it will continue, and I'm I'm very excited about how things are changing rapidly in the good ways. I'm, of course, anxious about how things are changing in the in the concerning ways and how to deal with that because they're here, whether we like it or not.

Jennifer: I would love to get a sneak peek into some of your processes, so I know that you have a lot on your plate. And in addition to that, you already mentioned that you have some neuro divergences, you have ADHD yourself, and at the thriving Narrator's Retreat, you're actually going to be part of one of the panels that will be discussing neuro divergences and differing abilities. So can you share with us some of the strategies that you use to work with your neurodivergence for the business side of things and the creative side of things?

Lisa: So yes, it's a little bit scary talking about it, because I'm only now trying to devise ways to handle this. I'm also learning. And this I didn't even I mean, I didn't talk about this in the, the last thing that I did because I wasn't really I'm still not sure, but and this is very, very plain spoken of me. But in truth, I'm learning now that there is actually a really strong indication. Of course, I it's not official. I'm not sure. I'm, I'm not sure it's always required to be official. I'm not sure that labels and official diagnoses are always necessary when it comes down to you, yourself, and you and your work struggle. You know what I mean? Like if, let's say you don't have some official diagnosis, I actually I do. But if you didn't and the techniques for someone who are neurodivergent work for you, so use them. You don't have to have the diagnosis. But anyway, what I was going to say is there's some strong indication that I actually have CPTSD, which is from a specific childhood trauma. And that manifests as ADHD. That doesn't mean I don't have ADHD. I do have it. I struggle with that and executive dysfunction. But I'm understanding better now why and where it came from. And it's a really emotional but fascinating process of teasing apart why, where, how you know, all of that and figuring out how to deal with it. And part of me feels sad that it's taking me this many decades to as a, you know, an older woman.

Lisa: I mean, this just wasn't especially with girls back in the 70s when I was in elementary school. I mean, this was like the farthest thing from being basically, things were so basic that, you know, they were hyper boys, period. And they got in trouble. That's about the extent of the awareness and understanding of any of this stuff. I mean, nobody used the word autism, ADHD, neurodivergence that stuff just didn't exist. And certainly girls were not looked at at all in any way, in any sympathetic way. It was not noticed. So I'm sad that I'm sort of learning all this now. And yet I'm also grateful that I'm dealing with this understanding of sort of unfolding it all with the maturity and decades of self-awareness and experience in the workplace to deal with it now, like, I'm not sure if I would have been able to handle it before. It also makes me more sympathetic toward entities that I might have easily blamed. For example, it's so easy to get irritated with the way things happen in the corporate world because, you know, they have they have their goals to meet. But I am now able to tease apart how much you know is me and my own particular neurology, and how much is just the way corporations must do things to meet their bottom line. I mean, in many ways it worked. It worked very well and beautifully, but in many ways, for me personally, I need I it just, you know, nothing went wrong.

Lisa: It's just that for me personally, I think that I think what I'm just trying to. I'm overthinking it. What I'm trying to say is the burnout wasn't just the workload, it was also the way that my brain works. And I just can't do 120 books a year, and I don't want to. And that's okay. That people can and do and they do that beautifully. But I want to do more intentionally, fewer projects that are more boutique. And for me personally, that is what I would like Prose Garden Productions to be known for is, you know, we're not going to just say yes to everything, but we're what we do say yes to. It's going to be really well thought out and approached powerfully in every possible parameter creatively, financially, marketing wise, business sense, all of that. So I'm excited. But anyway, getting back to my own issues. So I use alarms, paper and digital calendars. I'm using, you know, all the basic tools, you know, Bill.com and, you know, Google Sheets. And I'm using whatever technology that I find helpful to me. I'm not overdoing it. I'm a proud Gen Xer. So for me, the more straightforward the better. Just because something can be handled with apps and algorithms and a million other cool ways from the palm of your hand on your phone, doesn't mean that's always the best choice for everyone. I find there's a lot of redundancies, you know, like, I don't feel like I need a calendar on my phone, on my wall, in my laptop, in my head. You know, I it's just to me that the redundancies are it's I mean, come on, it's hard enough for me to keep stuff straight.

Lisa: So I'm using I'm learning to use some really basic intuitive linear because I'm a very much a linear thinker. Tools and, and and yet as resistant as I have been, I am, I must admit that there is some technology out there that is, hands down a thousand times better than putting something on paper. I don't, you know, I am actually moving away from paper, I do, I will admit, I still use a paper calendar. I also use a digital one, but I find that if I'm on my phone talking to a new client and they want to throw some dates at me, or we want to talk about a long range production schedule, It's easier for me to literally like, flip through a calendar on my desk and just quickly as I'm talking to them, then put them on speaker, look at my phone, find the app that will help me. You know, it's just for me. It just doesn't work like that. So I'm finding it's sort of like a little gaggle of tools that, that I'm pulling together that work for me. And it's probably very sort of artisanal approach to like, like whatever I'm doing, I'm doing it specifically for my needs. So I can't start saying like specific brand names of of programs that I'm using. I can, but, you know, I'm not using that many. I think less is more in general and and in business for sure.

Jennifer: I also think that your approach to it is a very instructive approach. Even if you're not sharing, you know, like use this calendar app or whatnot, because what you're doing is finding the tools that fit your unique creative processes and using those tools in a very systematized, regular way, rather than trying to make your square peg fit into a round hole of the tools that other people tell you you should quote unquote, use.

Lisa: Yes, yes, I spent too many years feeling inadequate because I, because someone, you know, 25 years younger than I am was telling me that I should, should, should. But what they're not understanding is that, you know, 30 years of habit. And that was working for me. Like, why, why, why fix something? I understand if you have technology that can enhance what you're doing and make it faster and more efficient, it's worthwhile. Absolutely. That learning curve is important. But I also feel like, and this is going to sound a little paranoid, I think there is a little bit of an over. And this is, you know, I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but like this is almost like silly. But I kind of want to make sure that, like, you know, when the Russians or whoever decide to paralyze America with, like, emps like, I'll still be able to function, which is absurd because for.

Jennifer: Calendar.

Lisa: I know it's totally absurd because spoken word entertainment will probably be the last thing on people's minds, I think. But you know what I mean? Like, I just, I'm sort of flitting between old school and new school and finding what works for me. And I'm keeping it pretty simple. I mean, it's not, you know, this isn't that complicated. You know, we're producing, we're taking writing, and we're hiring fabulous people like you to narrate it, and we're getting it out there in various formats. And now I can now I can sort of explore formats that I wasn't able to explore before. That's my favorite part of going indie is that, you know, I mean, there are there unproduced screenplays out there that will be if they're pulled in character driven stories that, for whatever reason, are sitting in, you know, gathering dust and they're the option has run out at Dreamworks or whatever, you know, some slush pile somewhere. It's like, so let's get a bunch of actors and let's turn it into an ensemble thing. I mean, I love the idea of kind of thinking out of the box in that way. So yeah, so as you can see, the ADHD is rearing its ugly head because I don't really remember what we were talking about, but I'm enjoying it.

Jennifer: Yeah. Me too, me too. We're talking about the the strategies you use to manage your ADHD, and I'd love to pivot that a little bit and look at narrators who are coming to you, maybe getting started on a new project with you. And let's say that that narrator has some, has a neurodivergence or has a.

Lisa: I am working with people like that.

Jennifer: Yeah. Has a has a differing ability of some sort because I really don't like the word disability, but has a differing ability in some way.

Lisa: Thank you. Yes.

Jennifer: How can they best communicate what they need to you, the person managing this project that they're working on?

Lisa: So as you may have noticed, I'm pretty plain spoken and very sort of brutally honest sometimes to the point where later I'm like, damn, why did I say that? Like but yes, I think being open for me, as always, I will not speak for other producers. For me, what works really well is if a narrator comes to me and says, hey, listen, I'm so excited about this, but here are my needs. Can we tweak this? Being really up front right away. So one of the things I'm doing is I'm putting all the possible information in the email, trying to respect, be respectful of narrators schedules. Like I'll say, it looks like this one's going to be a crash or, you know, good news, the manuscript is ready now, and I don't even need masters until the end of August. So let's talk about that. I'm trying to give them all the information right up front, as I my very initial email to them so that they can come back to me. And it's happening a lot. And people are saying, thank you so much for this information, because I can already tell you this isn't going to work. Or I can tell you that this might not have worked, but now it will. But what I need from you is X and I. I am a big this is really a team. It's a team where we're a we're partnership when we do this. In fact, it's a trio with the author. And I feel that way now more than ever, as you know, having left this big company.

Lisa: So I need them to tell me. I need them to say, listen, I, I don't work well at 6 or 8 hour chunks of time. I have a four year old. I have a husband who works from home. I have to make meals. It's okay because you know what? Let's work around it. And you know what? Quite frankly, if I'm directing, I will not direct more than four hours now, because now I'm. I'm trying not like, why? What? Let's just make a schedule that will work for all of our needs. And so I will be very up front. I'll say, listen, for this one, I want to direct. It's a very special book. It has a lot of, you know, languages, research, characters, accents, whatever. I really feel like, you know, I'd like to, but I will tell you now, I will not be able to pay attention for more than four hours, maybe five, on a really good day. If I sleep well and pop a Ritalin, you know what I mean? But I'd rather not. I'm actually trying not to take those, because I find that I just what happens is they're great. And then when they when they burn out, I'm exhausted and then the rest of my day is ruined. I probably should take another, but I won't do that because then I won't sleep. So a narrator. Are you specifically asking about neuro divergences like ADHD and this kind of thing? Or all kinds of things?

Jennifer: All kinds of things. So just, you know, being open. The difference that I have my differing abilities, that I have a chronic pain condition. And so sometimes I wake up in the morning and it's a really it's okay. I mean, I, I have gotten to a place where I am able to accept that that's part of my lived experience. I spent a really long time fighting against it. And, thanks to a really good neurologist, I'm actually at a really good place and doing very well most days in terms of a pain perspective. But, I mean, there will be days that I'll wake up that are completely unpredictable and it's like, okay, I am going to be in bed all day.

Lisa: Wow. So first of all, I'm I am sorry to hear that you struggle with that. You sound like you are managing it beautifully, and I'm happy that you are. That sounds really rough, but I will tell you that this is a great example and thank you for being open about that. So if you and I work together, this would be first of all, you know, you're you've just put it out there, but you're I can handle confidential information, and there would be no reason to discuss it with anyone else. But every thing that you need that a narrator needs for me is so helpful. Because if if you came to me and said, Lisa, I really want to do this, this is what my schedule is like. But I want you to understand that. Can we have a few buffer days in case I wake up? I would be so grateful that you told me that. And I would say, and now I'm saying it to you now because hopefully we will work together soon. I would say. Jennifer. Yes, absolutely. Let's look at let's say it's a four day record because it's because in the old, old days it would be a two day record. But we're going to break it already up, because if I'm directing, I don't want to direct more than four hours a day. So it's a four day record. And by the way, anybody big, any big five producers listening out there? I understand that sometimes that can't happen.

Lisa: I get the crashes. That's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about schedules that can breathe. So I would say, yeah, thank you for telling me this. It's actually it's just I really do believe that we are a team being open with each other, trusting each other. Like when I audition someone, I'm not just looking. I'm not just listening to a voice. I'm listening to so much more. I'm I'm. I mean, not to scare people, but of course, I'm listening to for skills and, you know, the voice quality and the delivery and the, you know, quote unquote performance, which is a word I'm wary of using all of that stuff. But I'm also, quite frankly, auditioning your studio if you're going to work at home, I'm also getting to know who you are and what your needs are and how we can work together for this temporary time as the best team possible. I mean, something as important as that. I'm not saying, you know, if you just chose not to tell me, it is very personal and it's none of my business, but it's only helpful if it could become a problem. You don't even have to say what it is. You can say I have some restrictions that sometimes require, you know, buffer days. Can we can we talk about that? And I would absolutely.

Lisa: So I think being plainspoken about your needs is very important, whatever they are. And if anyone comes to me with these like neurodivergent issues, I'd be like, oh my God, I'm all over it. Like we would probably totally trauma bond. It's a terrible, terrible word. But, you know, we would I would get it. I'm very sympathetic, and I find people like that to be wonderful actors and creative types do have, you know, varying neurologies, for lack of a better description. And I'm grateful to have them on projects. So yeah, just hit me up, let me know. And but also conversely, I mean, this doesn't happen often, but you know, let me know if don't be afraid to say it really isn't going to work this time, because right now I'm in the heart of like, I'm just looking at my schedule. It's not going to work for my particular needs. It's not going to work. Or that doesn't mean I'm never going to call again. You know, I probably will, because I have a corral of people that I'm routinely reaching out to and I'm expanding that corral. But I'm not going to, you know, honestly, there's you'd have to be really for me to not to, like, scratch someone off my list. It would take a lot, but that's a different podcast. So yeah, sure. That will be that will be the Petty podcast.

Jennifer: One of the through lines that I'm sort of hearing through all of your answers in our entire conversation today is that you are giving yourself and others the gift of space to be creative. Exactly that. You're allowing yourself the opportunity to do your best work because we don't do our best work when we are rushed, or when we're stressed, or when we're burned.

Lisa: You're right.

Jennifer: We do our best work when we have that space and that time to be intentional about the craft.

Lisa: Yeah, absolutely. And we live in a frenetic, frenetic society with an overstimulation of, I mean, way too many, too much information overload, too many, you know? Gosh, I mean, it's it's hard to even articulate. My point is that society is so frenetic and quite frankly, this is a little political, but keeping the engines of capitalism going hard core is something that major corporations have to keep in mind that really look, my brother lives in Europe and he and his friends love to tease and say. Europeans like to say Americans, you know, I mean, Europeans work in order to live, but Americans live in order to work. And I think there's some truth to that. And I think it's sad. So the overarching idea here is that we are in a frenetic society. There are these expectations, whether we like them or not, that are here, and some of us reject them wholesale, some of us embrace them completely, and most of us are probably somewhere in between. And I think taking the time when you can to try to at least remember that creativity needs to breathe. You can't be. It's very hard to be creative and think out of the box when you're on a factory line, when you're in a factory setting or and I'm sorry, I'm not insulting where I came from or anything.

Lisa: I just mean if bulk earnings and getting product out there is your number as quickly as possible and as many as possible, because the profits come from sheer numbers, it's going to be a very different production and a very different experience than you know. And of course, there's a you know, not everyone can do this. I mean, you know, there's there's there's some luxury involved with saying, I'm not going to produce that many, I'm going to produce this many, and hopefully they'll be so unique and different that we can actually put a slightly higher price point on them or whatever, you know? So I just don't understand. For me, I don't understand how to be creative in a crunch. I just don't because I'm so busy. Just I need to get it's all so deadline driven that I become a little frantic. And when my brain is frantic, there's no creativity. And I don't know how other people operate. But my guess is it's pretty hard for a lot of people. So I and I also look, this is really reaching out there, but it's getting a little woo woo. But like, you know, there's different kinds of people in American society and creative people who have stories to tell, to write, to speak, to narrate whatever they have made a choice with their lives.

Lisa: And they are sacrificing a lot. They are sacrificing steady income. They are sacrificing solid benefits. Sometimes they're sacrificing, you know, time with their spouse or their kids. Whatever it is they're sacrificing, they are choosing to. It's also brave. They're choosing a lifestyle that they're not just going, okay, you know, I'm going to go find a place where I can work on my widget and be a part of the, you know, the minions who keep those engines of capitalism running. And I'm very proud of people who do that. I'm very impressed by them. I'm really especially as an American. I'm sorry, but I know that this probably sounds ignorant, but I think for people in our culture to make that leap and that choice, I think there's I hate to say it, but I think they're made to feel guilty a lot. They're made to feel like, by their parents, by whoever, by their former employers, by their bosses, by whoever. That if you don't toe the company line and do, you know, do your bit to keep the society going, you know, you're somehow incapable or you're woo woo,

Lisa: Or you're this or you're that. That's not true. There's all different kinds of people, and some of us are artists. I mean, I'm not me. I'm not saying me. I'm not at all. Yet I hope to be someday. But, you know, there's I think we should respect all kinds of people I can't stand. I mean, quite frankly, I just can't stand the idea that there's this sort of vague underlayment of apology that goes along with being a creative person. Sometimes I notice it in some narrators, I notice it, you know, with other. My sister isn't brilliant muralist and painter, and she spends so much energy stressing about the fact that that little tiny, niggling voice of failure like, how come I wasn't able to, you know, but it would be a horrible shame if she were in if she were like in some major corporation somewhere, because the world wouldn't have her art all over walls, all over the world, you know? So anyway, I really feel strongly about that.

Jennifer: Again, it's giving yourself and others the gift of creativity, that space to be true to your inner creative urges.

Lisa: Yeah, I think our society needs it. I think American society sometimes forgets our artists and our actors and our writers, and I mean just by the sheer fact that they're not as well protected and they don't get paid as well, generally speaking, and that it requires such bravery to go down that road. I think that's sad and a shame, because if you're not reflecting upon your our lives as people and as humans on this planet, then and that's what artists do in a sense, then Then really, what's the point? How are you know, I don't know. I think it's important to provide that latitude and that air, that oxygen, that that breathing space. Who knows what kind of cool things people can come up with if they just have the time, you know, and the and the support they need the support. Yeah. Artists need support. Narrators need support.

Jennifer: I love it. Well, Lisa, I want to pivot to our final question, which is the same question I ask pretty much every guest on this episode, which is, could you give us or share with us a tool or a resource that you use in your creative work that helps you be awesome at what you do?

Lisa: Right off the top of my head? I mean, like I was saying before and alarms, calendars, blah blah blah for casting, I do rely on IMDb Pro audible for invoice, you know, for like business stuff. I'm starting to use Bill.com. I use Google Sheets. That's about the extent of my, you know, tech stuff. I mean some other things here and there.

Jennifer: All of those are super helpful. I mean, that takes care of how you do some of your creative work. You know, the the casting sites that help you find the talent that you're looking for, managing the business side of things. You've got bill.com because invoices matter. You've got to send out the invoice. So you get paid and Google Sheets for that. Project management.

Lisa: Yeah, yeah. Project management is something that I was never great at. And now I'm so happy that I've really mastered. I use Google Sheets for everything, like. But as far as tools that also just help be creative, I mean tools that are personal to me. So carving out time to do yoga, carving out time to meditate, I'm just really kind of getting into this because what I'm finding is that tools of self-awareness or tools that help with your energy levels or tools that just are about self-care is the first step. And that's something that I did not do for decades. And now it's like such a late. It's sad that I waited so long, but I have a lot of catching up to do. But it's very important, and I'm very much a compartmentalized, you know, that sort of hyper focus thing. And I think I hyper focus to the point where I was like, well, this decade I can't do any self-care because I need to meet all these deadlines, which is absolutely absurd. But it really actually happened. Like, like I used to be an athlete when I was young. I was doing like, you know, I played soccer for 26 years. I coached, I played lacrosse, I was a runner. I was, you know, then when I went into the work space, I let go of all of it. And now it's such a shame because my body suffered and I did have some health issues. And it's still, you know, on top of all the health issues. Now, I'm just not middle aged. I mean, I'm doing better, I'm doing great. And making the big decision I made was huge.

Lisa: I'm sleeping better than I have in a very long time. So tools that help you sleep, whatever that is, you know, and if you if you use tool with a broad stroke, there's all kinds of things you can do. But I'm trying to think what else? This is kind of silly, but I I'll use the phone as an old school. I will sometimes text people a narrators or other people and say, hey, can we do this old school style? Can I just call you? And that's that's sort of a silly example, but it just saves so much time. It's like one of the problems is I'm a writer, so I'm a perfectionist in my writing, so it'll take me 15 minutes to write one email. And quite frankly, I don't have the time to spend 15 minutes on one email, but I can't bring myself, I mean, one email that has a lot of information in it. And sometimes if it's okay with them, especially if I haven't gotten a lot sleep or whatever, I'll just say, you know what? I just I just want to talk to them. Let's kill three birds. Let me tell them the pertinent information. Let me get to know them. Let me ask them questions. Let me get a vibe off of them. Like, this is somebody I've already cast. I don't not everything has to be virtual. So something as simple as, you know, like I tease my 18 year old son and I'll say he'll, you know, he does everything under the sun on his phone. But of course, being 18, he doesn't answer his phone ever. It's an automatic voicemail thing.

Jennifer: Don't happen. It's a phone that's not no phone, right? No.

Lisa: And like, he'll you know we'll be I'll just some conversation will be in and I'll just say he'll have to reach out to somebody and Bill struggling because they're not returning his text or whatever. And I'll be like, you know, here's a radical idea. Did you know that that you can actually speak into that thing and actually hear the other person's voice, like, right now? And, you know, like I sometimes have to remind myself, you know, and I'm 40 years older than he is. So it's like I even sometimes cold call people. In the old days, that was a thing. Like to get a job, you had to be able to cold call an agent, cold call an editor, cold call an author. It was pretty scary when you're like, you know, 23 years old, but it's a thing. You can actually do it. And one of the cool things is I'm finding is people are delighted. They're absolutely delighted to. Usually you have to time your call, but especially if I just text first and say, hey, I will follow up with an email, but do you have time to chat? And they'll say, hey, give me ten and then we'll chat. So you know something as simple as using a telephone, you know, I don't know, I haven't really given a lot of thought to the tools.

Lisa: It's a really interesting question, but and, you know, I just have to throw this in there because so many listeners are probably narrators using websites. I said this in my last thing the other last week. I say this in every sort of podcast that I'm in. I know social media is important, but I think a baseline website is I know there was a trend there for like ten years where narrators were like, a website's not really necessary. I've got socials, I've got this. I'm not going to speak for others, but I actually find them incredibly helpful because it's a baseline place where I can see only you, and I can see you as you represent yourself to yourself in the sense that you're not actively in conversation on social media. In other words, the visual and audio, the aural a u r a l and and visual information I'm getting from your website feels like it's intended for me. It's not an act of conversation on social media, like on Instagram or TikTok or whatever. It's not. I'm not just somebody in the crowd of doom scrollers who's going through and like, oh, there you are.

Lisa: Oh, oh, here's, here's so and so. It's like, okay, I want to see what Jennifer Jill Araya is about. I'm going to go to her website, listen to her samples, not the ones that audible pops up when I put her name in, but the ones she feels good about, the ones that represent her best. I want to see who she is. What's her background here? Look, here's her resume. Here are her samples. Here is her picture. And here, you know, here's a video some people put in a video. And I love this. Just saying hi. This is who I am. So I can see you and I can like, you know, it can obviate a phone call. It's like it's almost like a phone call, like, hey, audiobook producers out there like, this is who I am. This is what I do. This is I hope to I hope to work with you soon. Like, I love that a lot of people in England do that. A lot of British narrators do that on their websites. I'm not really sure what's going on there, but I keep telling Americans to do it.

Jennifer: The video idea is a good one. It's not one that I've heard before.

Lisa: I think because we're all so ear oriented, we just don't think of it. But, you know, maybe it's like verboten to some people. Maybe the reason they're in audio is because they have a terror of being on camera. I don't know, but I just find it personally. I find it kind of nice and helpful, and it it always feels like a little extra treat when it's on someone's website. Plus I will now what's happening is some of the smaller publishers they'll connect me with an author or an author will come directly to me and I will be able to say, hey, this is who I'm thinking about. Here's a link to their website. So I'm not asking an author or an in-house person at a small publishing at a publishing house to say to go find your TikTok thing and look at their what? How long is a TikTok like 15 seconds or something? You know what I mean? Yeah. Like here, this is I'm actually these are the women I'm thinking of for this book or. These are all the people for this ensemble cast. I'm going to get auditions for you. But what do you think? Just based on their websites, what are your thoughts? And then they might say, okay, I like all of them. Or how about this is the angle I'm going for. So it enables conversation between that author and myself or that producer, that in-house person on myself, that publisher and myself. And it also lets everybody take the time to really grok who you are. I really think that websites are important. I mean, that's a big tool for me, as during casting.

Jennifer: Actually at VO Atlanta, I was a faculty member this past March for the programming there, and one of our sessions was titled Audiobook Narrator Websites.

Lisa: Oh, really?

Jennifer: We just talked about websites for audiobook narrators and why they're an essential part of your marketing marketing strategy.

Lisa: Absolutely. And you know what's so ironic is that apparently I did have a website like for about a hot minute, like years ago for Prose Garden something maybe it was like prose garden audio dot com or something. And apparently it's still out there and there's nothing on it, because an author just came to me with an unbelievably fascinating project, which I can't wait to produce. And she actually, she found it. I was horrified because I, after all everything I just said, I don't have a website yet. So that's the other thing I'm doing. I know I need to do it. I mean, I know, I know, that's what this summer is all about. It's just the summer got really complicated with, well, you know, my son and he's an actor, so he ended up getting this Broadway thing and it just was so crazy. So really fun. Crazy but crazy. so I have to do that, too. I have to take my own advice.

Jennifer: I love it. Well, Lisa, thank you so much for your time. This has been a truly delightful and thought provoking conversation. I really appreciate you sharing with us today.

Lisa: Thank you Jennifer, I really enjoy it. I hope I didn't meander too much and not at all. I think by now people know that when they call me, they're going to get a little bit of that. So I appreciate the extra time and the breathability of your of your podcast.

Jennifer: Well, I mean, the whole point of what we were talking about today in the full conversation was having the time to be creative and giving yourself the space to be intentional about that process. And absolutely, I think our conversation was a perfect encapsulation of that.

Lisa: Me too, I agree very much. Thank you. Thank you Jennifer, I'm I always enjoy talking to you and I look forward to future conversations.

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Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the Starving Artist No More podcast. I’m so glad you were here with me for this conversation about intentional creativity. A huge thank you to Lisa Cahn for joining me for this episode. Lisa will be a faculty member at the upcoming Thriving Narrators Retreat in Cincinnati, which is taking place August 22-25, 2024. If you’d like more information about that event, you can find all the details on my website, www.StarvingArtistNoMore.com. As of late July, when this episode is originally being published, registration is still open for the retreat, and will stay open through July 31^st. I’d love to have you join us. A huge thank you also goes out to my husband, Arturo Araya, who is the audio engineer extraordinaire for every episode of this podcast.

Whatever you need to be your best creative self, you can take positive, concrete steps to create that environment around yourself. Give your creativity room to breathe. Take the time you need to find artistic joy. Give yourself the gift of creativity. I can’t wait to see what you create.