056: The Neurodivergent Creative
While I’m not neurodivergent myself, I know a lot of artists who are. In fact, quite a few of the artists who work with me to build their entrepreneurship skills are neurodivergent in one way or another. You, the fabulous artist listening to this podcast, might even be neurodivergent yourself. And this prevalence of neurodivergence among artists is more than just anecdote; a recent Psychology Today article [ https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/eating-disorders-among-gender-expansive-and-neurodivergent-individuals/202212/research-shows ] explains that “neurodivergent individuals excel creatively,” making them uniquely suited to artistic careers. But while being neurodivergent can be a bonus in the creativity department, it can bring a whole host of unique challenges in the other aspects of our creative work. Today, let’s discuss strategies for handling the ups and downs of life as a neurodivergent creative.
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Hello, thriving artists, and welcome to episode 56 of the Starving Artist No More podcast. I’m so excited you’re here for today’s episode!
Our conversation today is another interview-format episode. Today, we’re talking with award-winning actress and audiobook narrator Marni Penning. Marni is special to me for lots of reasons. She’s one of my business accountability partners, along with Gail Shalan, who we heard from last week, which means that Marni and Gail are a big part of how I take action and keep myself accountable to the tasks that need to get done in my creative business. On a personal note, Marni is one of my closest friends. And even more than that, the script-marking process that I use for all of my auditions is something that Marni taught me, what she calls the Penning Method for the Panicked Actor [ https://www.theladyhamlet.com/about-5 ]. It’s a script marking technique for actors allowing you to quickly make confident, text-based decisions that give you a memorable, unique read for your audition. In a way, you could say that, when I win an audition, it’s thanks to Marni’s teaching.
In fact, I believe in Marni’s method so much that she will be presenting it as part of the Thriving Narrators Retreat, a workshop that I’m hosting in my hometown of Cincinnati in just a few months, August 22-25, 2024. We’ll have a total of 11 faculty members, comprised of casting directors, audiobook narrators and coaches, and audio engineers, who will all work with attendees and share their experience and expertise. Marni’s sessions, in particular, are going to dig into audition prep and audition performance. The retreat is going to be an incredible experience for the narrators in attendance, and I am more excited about this event than I can even say. So, if you’re an audiobook narrator listening to me right now, I encourage you to check out information about the retreat on my website. You can find all the details at www.StarvingArtistNoMore.com. And if you have any questions that aren’t answered on my website, just reach out and ask.
But I know that not everyone listening to me right now is a narrator, meaning the retreat doesn’t apply to you, or isn’t even an actor at all, meaning that Marni’s audition prep and text analysis method, as amazing as it is and as much as I use it on a daily basis, wouldn’t be helpful to you.
So today, with Marni, we’re not talking about any of that. Rather, we’re discussing a specific aspect of who Marni is, and how that influences her creative work. Marni has a neurodivergence, specifically ADHD, which means that her brain doesn’t work in quite the same way as other people’s do. She wasn’t diagnosed with ADHD until she was an adult, meaning she navigated most of her creative career as a stage actress, audiobook producer, and audiobook narrator without even knowing why she struggled a bit more than others. But after she was diagnosed, she enlisted the help of an ADHD coach, as you’ll hear us discuss in our conversation, and she was able to figure out habits, systems, and processes that allowed her to craft a creative business that truly works for her and meets her needs.
If you’ve listened to my podcast episode about the Six Components of a Thriving Creative Business [ https://www.starvingartistnomore.com/podcasts/starving-artist-no-more/episodes/2147862468 ], you know that I consider supportive habits that allow you to be your best self, both personally and professionally, to be an essential part of how you build a creative business that works. But if you have a neurodivergence that makes your path a bit more circuitous, then those supportive habits, systems, and processes take on an even higher importance. Setting up your business tasks and responsibilities in a way that your unique brain can process it with ease will bring such a sense of calm and focus to everything that you do.
As I mentioned at the top of this episode, I myself do not have a neurodivergence, at least not that I know of. (Having a chronic pain condition is enough of a problem for me to deal with, thanks! Haha) But many artists do navigate the world of creative entrepreneurship with brains that are wired just a bit differently. I wasn’t able to find a study that specifically addressed the prevalence of neurodivergence in all creative industries, but a 2022 study of professionals working within the field of Electronic Music [ https://www.billboard.com/pro/neurodiverse-electronic-music-study-analysis/ ] found that 58% of their survey respondents have a neurodiverse condition.
Take a moment to fully process what I just said. Scientists, whose work was sponsored by the Association for Electronic Music, surveyed 137 people working in the electronic music industry, and over half – 58%! – of these working electronic musicians replied that they have brains that work in unique ways!
And again, while I don’t have a study I can cite that proves it, I have a strong hunch that other creative industries are just like that of electronic music when it comes to the prevalence of neurodivergent artists working within their ranks. Even if you yourself don’t have a neurodivergence, chances are many of your creative friends and colleagues do.
This isn’t really much of a surprise. As I mentioned in the introduction to this episode, Psychology Today has reported on the enhanced creativity exhibited by neurodivergent individuals. Quoting from that article, “It has long been speculated that neurodivergence is associated with increased levels of creativity, and now research is beginning to prove this concept. Their brain’s divergence from the norm allows neurodivergent individuals to perceive and experience the world in unique ways that naturally lend itself to artistic or creative pursuits.”
Thanks to their brain’s unique functioning, neurodivergent people often exhibit incredible creativity. Is it any wonder that these neurodivergent individuals then find themselves drawn to creative, artistic industries for their work? Honestly, it just makes sense!
But thriving as an artist in a culture that teaches us that artists are supposed to starve, a culture that works against the truth that artists are capable of thriving and being fulfilled by and through their creative work, is already a difficult proposition. The “entrepreneur” part of being a creative entrepreneur is really hard, to say the least. Add in a brain that operates outside the expected norm, and societal systems that often aren’t open to accommodating anything outside that norm, and things get even trickier.
That’s why I asked Marni to share her insight and experience with you today. She’s navigated the whole spectrum of the process, from not knowing why she was struggling, to getting diagnosed, to seeking out help, and to now implementing the specific strategies that are allowing her to truly flourish in her work. Marni is living proof that being a neurodivergent creative doesn’t have to be a constant struggle. Rather, if you’ve got the right strategies, systems, and habits supporting you, being a neurodivergent creative can be a journey of joy and delight.
Let’s dig into that conversation and see what Marni has to teach us.
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Jennifer: Hello, Marni, and welcome to the Starving Artist No More podcast. I'm so excited that you're joining me today.
Marni: Hi, Jennifer. Thanks for having me. This is great.
Jennifer: Absolutely. It is my pleasure. So let's dive right on in. I know that you have ADHD, and that neurodivergence really has been a hallmark of how you handle your work. And having supportive habits is one of the six components of a thriving creative business that I talk about all the time. And as someone with a neurodivergence, I have to imagine that those supportive habits and practices are even more important for you than they are for me. And let me tell you, they are really important for me. So I would love for you to tell me a little bit about the habits and practices that you use in the business side of your work, so that you and your business can thrive.
Marni: Absolutely. It was a big shock to me, actually, to be diagnosed because I didn't get diagnosed until I was 50. I just knew that I was really bad at being on time. I was a huge procrastinator. I say it like it doesn't happen anymore. But I have always been a huge procrastinator. I have difficulty staying focused on one task, except if I get into a hyper focus, I will like just work, work, work, work, work, and then all of a sudden it's 4:00 in the morning. And that's been something my whole life I've done, like school projects or learning lines or anything really, like organizing a room in my house. I'll put it off and put it off and put it off until I feel like doing it. And then all of a sudden I work for hours straight on on end. I ended up getting an ADHD coach.
Jennifer: Oh, okay. Tell us about.
Marni: That changed my life. Yeah, she absolutely changed my life. Shanna Pearson is the woman who runs ADHDcoaching.com, and she teaches people with ADHD. She matches them up with coaches who are like them. So my coach was a mom who had two ADHD kids and ran her own business. And so she was able to relate to me. But her superpower with ADHD is coaching other people to to thrive and have these good habits. So the very first thing that she did with me was chunking my schedule.
Jennifer: Okay. Tell us about that.
Marni: I think of chunking schedules, sort of like in school where it's like there's morning meeting and then there's a transition period, and then you go to English and then there's transition period, and then you go to math, blah, blah, blah. She helped me chunk my daily schedule for my home because I was sort of going, "Okay, I know I need to record two hours today, and I know I need to go to the grocery store, and I know I need to get my child to school and from school, all the stuff and some of those things have to happen at specific times, and other things can be floating." And so everything was floating other than getting my child to school at a certain time. So what she helped me do was have certain times of the day where I was in the booth, and certain times of the day that I was with my family, and certain times of the day that I was needing to go to sleep, because at the time I was also recording overnight.
Jennifer: I remember that!
Marni: Yes, oh my gosh. But so what that helped me do was if a doctor's appointment came up, I would schedule in the time that was not in my recording time so that I wasn't taking time away from my work in order to go do the the other things I needed to do, like being at the doctor, all the stuff I wanted to do. If I had a coaching student, I would put that in the hour before dinnertime so that I would have time with my child, and then I'd have my coaching student, and then I'd have dinner with my family. So I kept my family time intact. I was using all of my daytime hours previously to run errands, go to the grocery store, go to the doctor, do all these things, and then leaving my family to come down in the booth because I had recording to do. And just by virtue of setting up a chunked schedule for, "This is work time. This is family time," I was able to get that time back and use my work time more efficiently, and spend much more time with my family.
Jennifer: That is beautiful. Something that I've said a lot on the podcast is you get what you schedule, and I love that you are now using your schedule as a process and a habit to support both your personal self and your creative self. That is delightful.
Marni: Absolutely. And she really helped me too, to to find out what I was really good at in my personal life and my my business life and reach out to others for help when there was something I wasn't good at. And so staying on task is something that my brain does not do naturally. And so I ended up hiring a personal assistant to do my scheduling. So nothing fell through the cracks, and also so that I wasn't overscheduling myself because I have a tendency to go, "oh sure, I can do that," and completely overschedule myself.
Jennifer: No artist has ever done that. As I raise my hand to say that I'm doing it right now.
Marni: Exactly. So she helped me by taking charge of my of my timing, of my work, and I would send her, say, I've got this book that's going to take me ten hours, and she will schedule it out to be one finished hour per day, not including weekends, because now I don't work on weekends. Weekends are for my family.
Jennifer: Yes they are.
Marni: And then, also to put an extra day in there because life happens.
Jennifer: It does.
Marni: And so when I get sick now, I mean, it's still disruptive to my schedule, but it's not, "I have to do three books in three days because I didn't allow for that extra time." And also, I hired an engineer, which is for all the people with ADHD in the audience. It is my body doubling every day. Yeah, I could absolutely work without an engineer, but I'm not good at getting myself in the booth. Even though I love what I do. I think it's because I love what I do that it's harder for me to get in the booth because it feels like an indulgence.
Jennifer: Oh, sure.
Marni: But it's my work. And because I'm my own boss, I have to make sure that there's a reason for me to get in the booth, and having somebody waiting for me that I'm paying to be there, whether I'm there or not, is a really good incentive.
Jennifer: Absolutely, absolutely. So for people who are listening, who don't know what body doubling is, I will put some links in the show notes to to explain it. But also just in general, body doubling is when you have someone else that you're either on a zoom call with and you've both muted yourself, or you're on a phone call with, or you call them at the beginning of the time period and the end of the time period, and you are accountable to that person for the two of you both taking care of your tasks that you're going to work on. And Marni and I have actually body doubled together at times for our writing, because we both do some writing work and we've body doubled together to do that writing. So at the beginning of the time, we tell each other what we're going to work on and how long we're going to do it. And at the end of the time we check in and ask, "Did you actually do it? Did you get distracted?" And it's a wonderful accountability method. But, Marni, you do it with a contractor that you work with, an outsourced employee. So I would love to hear a little bit about the decision to do that, outsourcing. Because, you know, outsourcing sometimes can feel a little scary. You're now responsible for paying someone else. So those finances have to stretch a bit further. And I also outsource. I actually have a podcast episode about outsourcing for creative entrepreneurs that I'll link in the show notes as well. But tell us about that decision for you. How did that how did that come about, and was it scary at all?
Marni: It was a little scary, to be honest, because I was like, "Oh no, like I'm giving a portion of what I make to someone else." But I found that I was more efficient with him there, so I was able to do more. So I was actually making more money because I was hiring him, which actually covered his salary. But at the beginning I was like, "Oh no, am I going to have enough." And also because, you know, as artists, we are gig workers and the money is not always steady. And so I wanted to make sure that I had enough work so that I would be able to pay him. And he's been very understanding at times when it's been a little lean and the paychecks have to be a little bit later than, you know, every week. And most jobs you don't get a paycheck every week anyway. But, it's been good enough for over a year and a half now that I have had the resources and income to pay him steadily. And my personal assistant. And I'm terrible at bookkeeping. So I hired a bookkeeper and that's the best money I ever spent. Because now when taxes come around, she hands me a document and I give it to my tax preparer. And it's not three days of me going, "Oh my gosh, where are all these receipts?"
Jennifer: Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, I've already mentioned the six components of a thriving creative business, and one of those is well-managed finances. And when you get to a place in your business that you are able to outsource that task, that can be a huge weight off your back. And in general, when you're working to outsource some of the things -- like you said as you phrased it, things you're not good at -- when you're outsourcing those tasks, the idea is that it will give you back enough creative energy that the finances will take care of itself, and you'll end up making more. I work with a personal assistant also, and I have found exactly that. I am able to be so much more efficient in the things that I want to do, because she's taking care of some of the stuff that was tedious for me.
Marni: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So not just that I'm not good at it, but that it is taking away from time that I need to have, either for my business or my family.
Jennifer: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. You're using those habits and those practices to prioritize what makes you your best self, which is awesome. I want to change directions a little bit. You mentioned at the very beginning of our conversation that you were diagnosed with ADHD later in life, so you didn't always know why your brain works a little bit differently the way it does. So tell us about the process of coming to that realization and how that influenced your creativity. I mean, did knowing the cause behind those differences change your lived experience as an artist?
Marni: Wow, that's a great question. So I came to it the way a lot of parents actually come to their diagnosis by checking out resources for my child who also has ADHD, and by seeing things that were happening with him and then researching why that was happening with him, I started to see, oh, wait a minute, but I do that and I also do that. And then I was assigned a book called A Radical Guide for women with ADHD by doctors Michelle Frank and Sari Solden.
Jennifer: I'll link that in the show notes if people are interested.
Marni: Oh yeah, it's actually one of the most popular books that I've ever narrated, because I think there are a lot of us who were assigned female at birth, who grew up as young girls who were not diagnosed or not seen as having a learning difference or a difficulty. I was just reading an article about it where the girls from the 70s and 80s, who grew up in the 70s and 80s, are sort of this lost generation of, "Well, you're not a problem. So I'm not going to give any extra assistance to you." But in the back of our in the back of our minds, we were having all these difficulties. We were dreamers or we were having trouble focusing, but we were well behaved. So we weren't hyperactive. The ADHD stereotype is the hyperactive boy in the back of the class. Like, "Sit down, you're disrupting the class syndrome" is what Peter Shankman calls it. And so we were not given the resources to know what was different about our brains. We were creative, but we were also daydreamers.
Marni: We were artists and and thought in different ways, but we we weren't a problem in the class. And so we weren't given the extra tools to to work to our best potential, I guess is the is the best way to put that. So I often say that if I had known earlier that I fall asleep when I eyeball read, it would have been a huge difference to me in college because I would try to study and just fall right to sleep. If I had the resources that I have now where I could scan a page and listen to it, I would have aced all my classes. If I had known why I procrastinate till the last minute and always have. And not just have people telling me, "Well, if you just apply yourself, you do better." Like that's something I think that every ADHD person has heard growing up. "You should just apply yourself," you know, "Do better." And see, here's an ADHD thing. I've lost the plot of your question.
Jennifer: So that is ok, because I was actually getting ready to ask a follow up question. You just mentioned that procrastination is something that you struggle with, which I know a lot of creative entrepreneurs struggle with. So what are some of the strategies that you've found to help you get past that procrastination block?
Marni: Oh gosh, it's still a struggle, I have to say. But having having the body double there is a huge help. It really shows up when I'm packing for a trip. Like I will not start packing until like 10:00 at night, and then I'll pack overnight until my flight at 6 a.m. or whatever. So strategies to help with procrastination, I think, are really leaning hard on other people. Having someone to work with, having someone to be accountable to, having like checking in with other people.
Jennifer: Absolutely. And because a lot of creatives are solopreneurs, meaning we're our own bosses, we're working by ourselves in our businesses. That's something that you have to seek out. It's not something that just happens. I mean, if we worked in a traditional workplace, we'd have bosses and we'd have coworkers and, you know, we'd have a structure that would help us with that. But because we're working on our own, that structure isn't there. So it's up to us to create it.
Marni: Yeah, absolutely. I don't know if anybody in the audience will relate to this, but I always clean my house faster when somebody's coming over to visit. or I go through my closet faster if someone is there just talking to me. That kind of body doubling works, too. And so if you just just have someone else who who you trust, who you can be accountable to. Like, if you're a painter, maybe you really want to get back to your painting. But you're doing other things. Maybe you can call your best friend and say, "hey, I'm going into the studio now. I'll call you when I'm done." Or, you know, "hey, would you mind hopping on zoom with me while I paint?" Absolutely. And, you know, you don't have to talk to me, just be there. Or the same thing with, you know, people who make clothing or people who do woodworking. It doesn't matter what what creative business you're in. Having a buddy helps. It's like going to the gym, right? You don't go to the gym unless you have somebody to go with you.
Jennifer: I don't remember what book it was that I was listening to. I listen to a lot of nonfiction books, business type books usually, but one of them, in the last maybe couple of months, had the idea of, if you're wanting to have a partner for going to the gym, you give each other your gym shoes so that your partner cannot work out unless you are there as well, and same thing for you. And so that really ups the accountability that the other person can't do their job unless you show up. I'm not sure what the equivalent to that would be for artists who are body doubling over zoom. However, making sure that you are really accountable with someone to both get that work done, or at least that other person is willing to sit on a zoom call with you. You know, just have your zoom open on their computer so that you can see, "hey, they are still there, and they know that what I'm supposed to be doing right now is recording or painting or practicing or whatever," whatever it is for you.
Marni: I see writers doing that all the time on TikTok. They'll get on a TikTok live and just have their camera on and they'll be writing.
Jennifer: In that case, it's not bodily doubling, its body multiplying because anyone can can check in and watch that.
Marni: Exactly.
Jennifer: Very cool. Well again, I want to change topics just a little bit. So before you began working as a narrator, you had a very well respected stage career, but you also, in between the stage career and then becoming a narrator, you worked as an audiobook producer. And I encourage all of the artists who work with me, who are new to their industry, to find support jobs within that industry, to get to know the people in the industry and to make some money to pay the bills while they're working to grow their primary artistic career. Now, I know that is not specifically why you were working as a producer to get into narration, but I would love to know about that transition from producer to performer for you. How did your experience as a producer inform your work later as a performer?
Marni: So I am much more patient, I think, with others in the industry. I know what it's like running around behind the scenes. So if I'm not getting an answer right away, I know exactly that they're trying. They're definitely trying on the other end. It's not that they're ignoring me. So there's that learning the ropes about audiobooks in general, starting as an audiobook producer, because I knew nothing, I knew nothing. And Andy Arndt was my college roommate, and she's the one that got me into producing. I was her first producer for Lyric Audiobooks, and I was -- and this was part of my ADHD -- I was like, "sure, I can do that." I have no idea what I'm doing. Jump in the deep end! I know I'll learn it as I go. And so I would smile and nod and and learn it as I went. But now that I know how things go, I try to be as good to my producers as I can, because I know what it's like not having someone be responsible for their end of the agreement. Not naming any names.
Jennifer: Mum's the word. Mum's the word!
Marni: But I know what it's like to chase people down. I know what it's like. I also know what it's like being a producer with ADHD and completely blanking on something and having things fall through the cracks and having to just, you know, apologize at the beginning of a process. I actually ended up in tears one time because I had completely spaced. The project came so far in advance that I thought I'd given it to my narrators and I didn't. And so as it came up to the time to to do the book I wrote to the narrators. I'm like, "okay, we're coming up on the date for this, and here's the thing." And they're like, "I never got a script. I don't know what you're talking about." And it all worked out in the end, but I did end up in tears on the phone to a helpline, not like a hotline, because that's if you're in dire straits. But it was just like, "I needed somebody to talk to." And she was really great about just saying, you're human, you're a human being. Humans make mistakes. It's okay. It's somebody's going to die over this. So, you know, it hurts. Apologize, do what you can to make it right. But at the end of the day, nobody's going to die because you forgot this project. So give yourself some grace.
Jennifer: Absolutely, absolutely. Thank you for sharing that story.
Marni: It helps puts things in perspective.
Jennifer: It does, it does. So what advice would you have for someone who is contemplating a creative career and has ADHD, or who already has a creative business and finds out that they have ADHD or any other type of neurodivergence? What advice would you have for navigating that?
Marni: I would say seriously, give yourself grace. There's nothing wrong with you. Your brain just works differently. So find ways that work for you. And don't be upset with yourself that the ways that work for everybody else don't necessarily work for you. I was saying to a friend that I would read so many self-help books and try and try and try to take the advice, but they're written for Neurotypicals, right? And I was saying it's like trying to fix a Honda with a Ford manual.
Jennifer: They're very different engines.
Marni: They're very different engines. So I would say find find people who have ADHD in the creative area that you are in and emulate what they do. And now again, everybody's brain is different. Or find someone who has neurodivergence and we're everywhere, like the creative industry is filled with neurodivergent people. I was just thinking the other day that Einstein was probably autistic. I'm sure that the guy who cracked the code for the Enigma code, whose name I'm forgetting right now because I have ADHD, I'm sure that he was also autistic. I know that so many people who have come up with creative solutions to change the world have had neurodivergences, and somebody was just saying that that neurodivergence might actually be an evolutionary thing.
Jennifer: Because it allows your brain to think creatively in ways that other people's don't. And so you come up with better solutions at times because you are, you know, using the phrase thinking outside the box.
Marni: Yes, absolutely. Our box is not not a box. We've got like, a sphere or a cylinder.
Jennifer: Yeah, a pyramid. Not a cube.
Marni: It's definitely like thinking, "we do think differently." And so in order to come up with solutions for ourselves, we have to think differently. And if that means you are naturally a third shift worker and you do your best work between 3 and 9 in the morning, then maybe figure out a way to adjust your sleep schedule so you can still get sleep, but then do your best work when it works for you.
Jennifer: I have said often that my most productive hours are between 5 and 9 a.m., which I don't actually like. I don't like being up that early, but when I do and when I do my work during that time period, I am so much more productive. And so that's part of my process, is going to bed early and getting up early and getting in the booth and getting that work done when I'm able to focus the best.
Marni: Yeah, absolutely. You just have to find what works for you. That's my advice. Find what works for you and do it that way.
Jennifer: Yeah, and be willing to experiment because I think that's part of it. You're not going to find what works if you're not trying different things. "I'm curious." Have that idea and aspect of curiosity.
Marni: Absolutely. And ADHD coaching I swear, changed my life. So if you're really struggling, there are really great coaches out there. And I highly recommend, we were never taught executive functioning. We just sort of had to wing it. So so she taught me how to work within my neurodivergence to have a more fulfilled life.
Jennifer: That's amazing. Well, Marni, I'd love to wrap up by asking you if you have any resources or tools that you use in your creative business that are super helpful for you and that you think other people should give a try? Now, we've already talked about body doubling and outsourcing, so if that's what you've got, then that's fine. But do you have any other tools you'd like to share?
Marni: Oh my gosh. Okay, so, I have to have a planner where I write things down. I have to be able to see everything. So I actually have a full year calendar where I can put my my vacations in. I can put in my conventions that I go to, and I can see at a glance my entire year. And that helps me enormously. I just got a write on Wipe off full year calendar on Amazon, and I attached it to some metal sheeting that I got at Home Depot, and so magnets can stick to it. I highly recommend that if you're having trouble keeping yourself on task, seeing everything at once is such a big help. Because electronic stuff doesn't necessarily work for me. A big hallmark of ADHD too, is time blindness, where you don't know how long things take and like object impermanence, where it's out of sight, out of mind. But if I can see my whole schedule, then every day, every time I walk out of my booth, it's right there it is. I am less likely to forget things or let things fall through the cracks. So that's one big thing.
Jennifer: I like that. I don't have a whole year calendar, but I also need to physically write things down. So I have a monthly planner that I use. And then I also, to keep track of what my creative tasks are for each day, I have a huge wall calendar that's month by month, but I bought the 15 month one, so it's got lots of extra months in there, and I replace them relatively frequently so I always have lots of extra months, and I use then post-it notes to put it on. So some ideas, two different methods, for having a physical calendar that shows you what projects you need to be working on and help a little bit with that project tracking. That's great. Do you have any other tools or resources to share?
Marni: Yeah, one other thing. So I bought write on wipe off magnets and I have a different magnetic board where I have my projects. And there are four categories of where the projects go. So projects coming up are in a column. And then the project I'm working on, I move the magnet over to there, and then when it's done, I move it into the corrections column. So I'm waiting for corrections there. And then once the corrections are done, I move it to either invoiced unpaid or need to invoice. And then once I've been paid for it, I move it into like a little area so that I have all the ones that I've done so I can see how how much I've completed.
Jennifer: That must be an amazing feeling to see all of those completed projects, you know, filling up that space.
Marni: And it's not just on a piece of paper that I put away. It's on the wall in my office. So I can in addition to the big calendar, I can just see project by project, what I've got coming up and what's in process and what's coming up next. So I don't I don't lose sight of that.
Jennifer: Some really amazing project tracking hacks and tips. Thank you for sharing, Marni. This has been a delightful conversation. Thank you for sharing your experience, and I am so thrilled that you're going to be joining us at the Thriving Narrators Retreat. You're actually going to be talking more about the craft than the business side of things at the retreat. Although we will have a panel on navigating Neurodivergence as an audiobook narrator, and you're going to be part of that. And I'm super, super excited about it.
Marni: I'm really excited too. It's all about helping your memory by writing things down. So it's part of what we were just talking about.
Jennifer: Exactly, exactly. Thank you so much for your time today, Marni.
Marni: Thanks for having me, Jennifer. I'll see you in Cincinnati.
Jennifer: Yay!
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Thank you so much for spending this time with me today. I know how precious time is to artist business owners, and I will never take it for granted that you choose to spend some of your time with me. Thanks for listening. I hope you found today’s conversation helpful, and that you’re leaving the discussion with some practical tips and tricks, as well as a mindset shift or two, that will help you in your creative work. If you did find today’s episode helpful, please share it with your creative colleagues. Sharing is caring! If you have any questions for me, any comments to share, or if you’d like to learn more about the Thriving Narrators Retreat, where both Marni and I will be faculty members, all of that information and a contact form where you can reach me is available on my website, www.StarvingArtistNoMore.com. I’d love to hear from you.
Today, a special thank you goes to Marni, for sharing her time with me and with you. And as always, a huge thank you goes to my husband, Arturo Araya, who handled all of the audio editing for this episode, and every episode, of this podcast. Thanks, Arturo!
Neurodivergence is common in creative fields. If you are neurodivergent, your brain’s unusual wiring makes you exceptionally creative and delightfully innovative as an artist. I applaud you for your unique perspective, and I’m so grateful that you’re here to make the creative industry in which you work a better place. And I also encourage you to figure out what systems, habits, processes, and strategies will help you be your best self and do your best work. There are solutions out there to help you work with the way your brain functions, rather than struggling against it. I know you can use your creativity to find those habits and systems. You can thrive as a neurodivergent creative. I can’t wait to see what you create.
