057: Casting Director's Perspective
Regardless of what creative industry you work in, communication is key. Particularly when you think of marketing yourself and your work to the people in your industry who serve in the project assignment role, the importance of professional communication skills cannot be overstated. When the decision-makers in your industry are deliberating about which artist to consider for a project, you want to make sure your name is in the running. I’ve talked about the importance of effective and efficient marketing and networking in previous podcast episodes, but today, you don’t have to just take my word for it. We’re going to hear directly from the source. In today’s episode, we’re going to get a casting director’s perspective on the importance of effective communication in your marketing efforts.
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Hello, thriving artists, and welcome to Episode 57 of the Starving Artist No More podcast! I’m so glad you’re joining me for today’s conversation with Jonathan Pennock, an audiobook casting director for Brilliance Publishing, an award-winning audiobook publishing company.
Today’s conversation does focus on the particulars of the audiobook world, and while I know lots of audiobook narrators listen to this podcast, I also know that many of my listening audience work and thrive in creative industries outside of audiobooks. And I want to let you know that even if you’re not an audiobook narrator, today’s conversation applies to you.
In the world of audiobooks, casting directors and audiobook producers serve as the point of entry for narrators who want to work with publishing companies. These casting directors and producers are tasked with finding the best possible match between the book they’re casting and the voice selected to perform the audiobook version of that book. At its most basic, casting directors are the people who can give audiobook narrators work. For many audiobook projects, casting directors are the decision-makers, deciding which narrators are invited to audition, which narrators are part of the pool of talent that’s considered for the project. As a result, developing positive working relationships with those casting directors, and marketing to them through email reach-outs, is an important marketing strategy for any audiobook narrator’s creative business.
Regardless of what creative industry you work in, someone in your industry serves a corollary role for you, acting as that point of entry for you to get work, serving in that role of decision maker. For actors of all kinds, whether you’re acting on stage or on screen or in voiceover or for audiobooks, building relationships with casting directors like Jonathan is vital. But even if you’re not an actor and if the decision-making people in your industry are called something other than “casting director” in their official job title, someone fills that entry point, decision-making position in every creative industry.
For example, in my work as a freelance orchestral musician, which is a creative industry that I’m active in even though most of income comes from audiobooks, the personnel managers for the orchestras in my geographic area serve the same function as Jonathan’s role as a casting director. While I am a tenured member of one symphony, if I want to play with orchestras other than the one where I’m a member, the personnel managers at those other orchestras need to know about me. I need to make sure I’m on their sub list so they will think of me when they need to hire an extra cellist for an upcoming concert.
When I worked as a private music teacher, providing voice and cello lessons to middle and high school students, the focus of my marketing efforts was reaching out to and forming relationships with the school music teachers who taught choir and strings in the schools near my teaching studio.
If you’re a visual artist who wants to show your work in galleries, getting to know the gallery managers is vitally important.
If you’re a wedding photographer, getting to know the wedding planners in your area will get you in touch with the couples who might be interested in your services.
For indie musicians in bands, building relationships with the scheduling managers at local concert venues is vital to creating performance opportunities and to building an audience and fan following.
And the list goes on. Fill in the blank for your specific industry and your unique creative product, but I can guarantee that, whatever your creative industry, there are people who you need to be reaching out to, marketing to, building relationships with, so that these people are aware of your work, and so that they are thinking of you and your work when they’re deciding what artist or artists to involve in any given project.
Many of the artists and actors I coach are hesitant to reach out to these decision makers, these people who serve as entry points for projects, gigs, and opportunities. Sometimes the artist I’m working with is afraid of making bad impressions, or saying the wrong thing, or doing something that makes the decision makers reluctant to consider them for future opportunities. Sometimes the artists have some imposter syndrome, thinking that their work isn’t good enough to warrant attention by the people in their industry that they perceive as holding all the power. Sometimes they don’t think they have a good enough relationship with these entry point people, and they place a bunch of unnecessary roadblocks in their way, coming up with all sorts of tasks that they “should do” before they’re ready to reach out. And sometimes they have any of a whole host of other objections in place that keep them from letting these decision makers know that they exist.
But what many artists fail to recognize is that these decision makers, these people who hold entry point positions in their industry, need us artists. This is a symbiotic relationship, and we are as important to the decision makers as they are to us. When we are open and honest with the decision makers about the kinds of projects we most enjoy and the kind of work we love to do, they are better able to do their job of selecting the right artist for the projects they’re working on.
For example, if an audiobook casting director like Jonathan doesn’t know about the many narrators working in the audiobook industry, then that casting director can’t do their job well. Let’s say Jonathan is casting a historical fiction audiobook about a fiery young woman who is an airplane pilot, at a time when few women learned to fly. While he’s deciding what narrators to include in the audition list for that book, it’s important for him to know that I grew up flying every week with my father, who had his private pilot’s license at the time, and that I’m planning to pursue my own pilot’s license within the next few years. My unique life experience flying small airplanes with my father gives me added insight into the character.
This isn’t just a random example: one of the first projects that Jonathan and I worked on together is The Aviatrix by Violet Marsh [ https://www.audible.com/pd/The-Aviatrix-Audiobook/1713585936 ], a novel about a daredevil female pilot working for a flying circus in the early 1920s. And if Jonathan hadn’t known this detail about my history, that I love flying, then he wouldn’t have known that perhaps I would be the right choice for this book. By sharing details of my lived experience with Jonathan, I helped him to better do his job. I gave Jonathan the information he needed so that he would know when to think of me, which helps him do his job more effectively. My reach outs to Jonathan are helpful to him.
Orchestra personnel managers need to know what freelance orchestral musicians are working in their geographic area and might be available for concerts. Wedding planners need to know what wedding photographers take incredible wedding photos and will create beautiful photo memories for their clients. Art gallery managers need to know what visual artists are creating art in the style that their clients will like so that they can fill their gallery with unique, innovative artworks that will draw people into their gallery. Casting directors need to know what actors are working in their genres and are expanding their skills so that they can present the best selection of auditions for consideration for the roles. Performance venue managers need to know what bands are available to fill their concert schedule.
When you share your work with the decision makers in your industry, with the people who serve as entry points to projects and opportunities, you are helping them do their job. When you give them the information they need so that they will think of you when projects come across their desk that are perfectly within your creative and financial sweet spot, you are allowing them to find the perfect artists who will bring their unique creativity and innovation to their artistic collaborations. Building relationships with these decision makers helps everyone involved, both you as the artist and them as the people needing to find the best artists for their projects.
I tell the artists I work with all the time that part of their job is to teach the decision makers in their industry how and when to think of them. When a project is being considered that would capitalize on some aspect of the artist’s unique creative process, it helps everyone involved if that artist’s name is in consideration when the decisions are being made. If you let the “entry point” people in your industry know exactly what kind of work is in your creative and financial sweet spot, everyone benefits. They have access to the artist who is most uniquely suited for the specifics of that particular project and will do the very best job, and you are able to do the work that lights you up creatively and that meets your needs financially.
At its most basic, building these kinds of relationships serves as the marketing and networking activity needed to allow your creative business to thrive. I’ve talked about the importance of marketing and networking before. In podcast episode 25, “Make Your Own Luck,” episode 26, “Marketing for Feast, not Famine,” and episode 27, “Networking for Feast, not Famine,” [ insert links to marketing and networking episodes ] I discussed how vitally important it is to build relationships with your creative colleagues that will allow you to find and take advantage of opportunities. And in Episode [ ] about your Creative and Financial Sweet Spto, I talk about how to figure out what work you are most uniquely suited for so that you are able to communicate that to the people making the decisions in your creative industry.
In other words, I’ve already told you how important those reach outs and relationships are, and if you happened to miss those episodes, you can go back and listen to them.
There’s no doubt about it – relationships matter in every creative industry.
But just in case you needed more confirmation that open, honest communication with your colleagues is important, especially that you need to prioritize open, honest communication with those “entry point” people in your creative industry, I’ve got a conversation to share with you today that is directly from the source. Jonathan Pennock, casting director at Brilliance Publishing, has experienced poor communication firsthand, and he’s got advice to offer about how you can effectively communicate with the people in your industry who are in a role that allows them to give you work.
As I mention at the top of our conversation, Jonathan is going to be a faculty member at the Thriving Narrators Retreat taking place in August 2024 in Cincinnati, and one of the things he is specifically going to be talking about is this very topic: business etiquette and how to handle your communication in a professional, effective manner. If you’re an audiobook narrator, we’d love to have you join us at this retreat. You can get all of the information on my website, www.StarvingArtistNoMore.com, and if you have any questions about the retreat that aren’t answered on the website, then just reach out to me. You can do that on my website as well.
So now, let’s turn to that conversation I had with Jonathan. For all of the audiobook narrators listening right now, take notes! Jonathan has so much great advice to share on the specifics of the audiobook industry.
And if you’re not an audiobook narrator, listen to get some great strategy tips and ideas for how you can reach out to the entry point people in your industry. Perhaps the exact details you should include in your email communications are different in your creative industry, but the overall purpose and type of communication applies regardless of whether or not you’re an audiobook narrator. No matter your creative industry, teaching the decision makers in your industry how and when to think of you is vitally important. No matter your creative industry, building relationships with honesty and openness matters. While Jonathan might be speaking from his vantage point in audiobooks, the concepts apply to all artists.
So now, directly from the source, let’s get the casting director’s perspective.
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Jennifer: Hello everyone and welcome! We are so excited that today we've got Jonathan Pennock joining us. Jonathan is an audiobook producer at Brilliance Publishing. He and I have worked together on quite a few projects, and Jonathan is also going to be attending the Thriving Narrators Retreat to represent the casting director and producer's side of thing, as we're talking about both the art of audiobooks and the craft of audiobooks. Jonathan, thank you for being here on the podcast today and sharing your perspective.
Jonathan: Oh, thanks for having me. This is my first podcast, so might be a little bit nervous, but we'll get through it and very excited about the retreat.
Jennifer: We are thrilled to have you. And I'm so excited that this is your first podcast interview. Yay!
Jonathan: And it'll be my first retreat as well. So wow, diving in first year. This year, 2024 is coming up all Jon.
Jennifer: I love it I love it. Well, let's dive right in and have some of the conversations that we've talked about wanting to have. So at the narrators retreat we are going to be talking some about business, communication, etiquette, and those sorts of best practices. So I would love to get a little sneak preview of your thoughts on that. How can narrators best communicate with casting directors and producers?
Jonathan: Sure, yeah. This is I mean, obviously 90% well, maybe not that big, but it's a good chunk of our job, casting directors and producers, communication. So, very important stuff. I kind of put this, I've put this into 2 or 3 different categories. The first one, starting off with if you're either a new narrator, you know, to the business, or if you're trying to work with a new publisher that you haven't worked with yet. So that first initial email, I think you'll want to include as much detail about yourself and your skill set as possible. To me, it's just as important, if not more important, to give as much information about yourself: your hobbies outside of narrating, ethnicity, pronouns if you're comfortable sharing, genres or topics you'd rather avoid narrating, where you grew up, you know, etc. stuff like that. Really good information for me to have. I personally like to try and match personalities with titles as best I can to hopefully to hopefully avoid reaching out when I know a subject may be off limits for you. I'll know you'll be more invested in the work. I'm not pushing anyone outside of their comfort zone.
Jennifer: This helps you know what projects we might be right for, but also what projects we might be wrong for so that you can make your casting decisions.
Jonathan: Absolutely. You know, and I think that makes me feel a lot more confident in what the final product will be. So yes, this first initial email, I wouldn't worry about going too far, at least. And a lot of this is going to be framed around how how we work at Brilliance, you know. Currently, unfortunately, we don't have a casting database, and something is in the works, but we don't have an online roster like Ahab or others where you can fill out, you know, a form and then we get that information. So we're kind of still doing it manually. Again, I hope that changes soon. So. That being said, I save all these emails. You know, I have a bunch of subfolders, so this is kind of one way I search for new narrator's information and how I kind of search for narrators in general. And then, of course, you know, outside of that, who you are as a person, the basics and any detailed information on your specific skill set, accents, languages you're proficient in, your acting background, links to your website, Audible pages, stuff like that. Really that first initial email should just be everything I would or we would need to know about you.
Jennifer: Now, is it possible to have that first initial email be too long? I mean, "everything" seems really comprehensive. Is there a length limit that we should think of for that very first email?
Jonathan: I would personally say no because like I said, I search. I'll go into that sub folder and I have a few different ones and I'll search specific keywords. So if it's not in that email ...
Jennifer: It's not going to come up.
Jonathan: Right? It's not going to show up for me. And again, this is a little clunky way of working and we are developing something. Hopefully it will come out sooner than later. But that's how I'm currently set up to work. And that's just one way of of how I search for narrators, but it's a good way. And, you know, there are so many new narrators. I don't want to leave anyone out. So, I save all those, as many as I can. That first initial email, as much information as possible. It shouldn't be a novel, I guess.
Jennifer: No four thousand word tome.
Jonathan: I don't need to know what you were doing in middle school necessarily.
Jennifer: So going forward beyond that, that's your initial reach out. But when we're communicating between projects, what sort of etiquette and best practices would you recommend?
Jonathan: I was going to say any any follow up emails after that. And this will be similar when you're already onboarded with Brilliance, and we're working with you regularly, hopefully. Any follow up emails should be very concise and infrequent. I usually say, every two months or quarterly feels comfortable. A quick rundown of availability is very, very important. Very good information. And again, I have another subfolder for that in my email. I'll go through that frequently to see who's available, because sometimes we have late drop-in titles that need someone immediately. So it's nice to know who might have availability. And anything skill set wise. If you've if you've found a new skill, any recent projects you're really proud of you want us to take a listen to. This should really only be a couple paragraphs. We don't, unfortunately, have time to go through every single one of these in detail an respond. And they should be kind of close-ended, not set up in a way where we need to feel like we need to respond to you and start a whole conversation again, as much as we would like to, we just don't have the time.
Jennifer: I've heard that from quite a few casting directors. Don't ask questions, just send the info, trust that they're getting it and they're reading it, and it will be saved in an email folder.
Jonathan: I mean, because I get a little obsessed with it, I feel bad if I don't respond. So I try to respond to everyone. But it's usually just a, "Hey, I got this. Definitely keep you in mind." But as much as I would like to have a conversation with everyone, it just isn't possible.
Jennifer: With the thousands of narrators out there, you can't be responding to thousands of emails all the time. It would get overwhelming. You've got books to cast and projects to produce!
Jonathan: Absolutely. Yep. Not enough time in the day for sure.
Jennifer: So now let's take it to we're working on a project together. You're producing a book that I am narrating. How would you like me, the narrator or the narrator in general, to communicate with you? What are those best practices like?
Jonathan: So, you're in you're in the middle of a project with us right now?
Jennifer: Yeah, we're working on a project together. You're the producer. How often do you want me to reach out? What sorts of problems are, quote unquote, "big enough" to reach out for? That's something that I get asked about a lot is, "I don't want to bother the producer, I just want to fix it or take care of it." You know, how in the loop should we keep you?
Jonathan: I would say, we put a lot of trust in our in our narrators, and it will depend on certain projects: if we have a director on it or not, or if they're recording in a home studio, how much materials they have ahead of time, and all that kind of stuff. But no, I think I would lean on the more information, the better. And I mean, if you have a question, yeah, please do not hesitate to ask. Like I said, we rely a lot on the narrator and we expect quite a bit, you know, we expect them to prep and all that kind of stuff, but we're not going to turn away if they need help. And we want to make sure we get the best product out there, pronunciation wise or character wise. So yeah, I mean, more communication the better. And especially if it comes to delayed recordings at all, you know, even if it's a day, we're sort of chasing everything here. We don't proof everything daily as it comes in. But we are checking in files, you know, ensuring quality and trying to catch anything as we go. So, you know, any little delays, you know, we we definitely would like to know.
Jennifer: I think that's something that narrators sometimes forget because a lot of us do work by ourselves as solopreneurs in our home studios, and we forget that there's actually a whole team that's working on this audiobook with us. So if we're late getting our deliverables to you, that means the preppers can't start their job and the engineers can't do the work, and the pickups aren't going to be ready when they're supposed to be ready, because we're late getting the files to you as well.
Jonathan: Yeah, it's very important. And to me personally, that whole downstream mentality of leaving the project in a better state than when you take it on. So, yeah, I don't know if there's really an over-communication during the production part. We're not going to look at your word list and your pronunciation list and, you know, micromanage you that way. But we're definitely here to help, so if you have any questions or concerns about anything during the project, please reach out. And then, like I said, if there's any hold ups, any planned vacations that might come up during the recording that might affect any pickups after the project is finished? Um, the sooner we know that, the better, because, again, the engineers are planning to work on it at a certain time. Proofers are planning to proof it at a certain time. If we need to adjust schedules earlier, the better for sure.
Jennifer: For sure, being open and honest about that sort of thing is something I always find to be helpful.
Jonathan: Yeah, it goes a long way with the producer. It goes a long way with me, you know? That's how you know it's a relationship, just like in life. The more you trust someone, the more work they're going to get. The more you rely on them, the more you want to go back to that narrator. So, keeping us involved and in the loop of what's going on is very important.
Jennifer: Absolutely. So these are all best practices that we've been talking about. I'd like to flip it to the other side. What are the biggest mistakes or the most common mistakes that you see people making as they're either reaching out, trying to express interest in working with you, or mistakes that they're actually making on projects that might influence your decision to hire them in the future. Again, what mistakes have you seen and how can we avoid them?
Jonathan: Yeah, a lot of them are just going to be the inverse of what we've already been talking. I mean, I'm not going to (bad way to phrase it, I guess) turn my nose up at anyone who's reaching out to me too much. I'll probably just send them, "excuse me!" A gentle note saying it's better to just reach out every two months. So I wouldn't necessarily call something like reaching out too much a mistake. But, poor communication will be the quickest way to be put in our bad graces, for sure, you know? We're usually on pretty tight deadlines for almost every project. So we need to know if something's going to come in late. If it surprises us last minute, it's going to rub us wrong. That's going to stick with us. And if it's a recurring issue, we're definitely going to look for other narrators for certain projects. So that's that's one of the quickest ways, poor communication, delivering files late in general. Brilliance might be a little different in this aspect. But like I said we we check in files daily. So our expectation is that we're seeing those files at the end of every day or every planned rcvording day. It doesn't have to be consecutive, of course. But consistent dropping the ball on that kind of stuff will put us, well, might make us reconsider. You know, these aren't huge issues, but it's important.
Jennifer: Yeah, absolutely. You're, as you mentioned earlier, you are putting a lot of trust in the narrator. and so you're asking that they do what they say they are going to do when they say that they're going to do it.
Jonathan: Yes, yes. It sounds simple. And, you know, we we're understanding, we're all human. Stuff comes up. It's just keeping us in the loop and being honest. Like you said, we're understanding. We just need to know what's going on so we can adjust, and then, like, not prepping. Well, stuff like that, if you're asking questions during the recording about stuff that probably should have been caught during prep, that can be a little annoying. But not a deal breaker. You know, if it's consistent, that might be an issue. We don't we do run a lot of these issues. No, not issues. We run a lot of these questions sometimes through the author, or we'll consult with them, too. So, we don't like to go back and forth with the author too much, you know, taking up their time. So, if there's going to be questions for us, um, pronunciation wise or character wise, getting them all at once is the best way to go. So we're not going back and forth.
Jennifer: Absolutely goes back to the downstream mindset that you mentioned earlier, where it's helpful to understand that on every project there are other people involved. So if there are questions that do need to be answered by the author, we need time for you to get those questions and then send it to the author and the author to then reply to you before it gets back to us. and you don't want to have to go through that process over and over and over again. So I think if narrators will understand that they're not working alone, even though they might be working by themselves in their little studio, they're not actually working alone. It is a team project and being considerate of the other people on the team.
Jonathan: Yeah, that's a great point, too, that most of the time we're not going to get these answers back in a timely manner, especially if you're already recording. So, you know, doing the prep before recording is very important. And I know that's harder. That's easier to say than, than it is to actually do. Totally aware of that. But if it's possible, getting all that squared away before recording is very important on.
Jennifer: On not a brilliant project, but on a, another company's project, about two months ago, I got my prep questions in a good two weeks before I was set to start recording, but the author was on a book tour at the time, and it took her four weeks to get back to me, so I ended up having to record not knowing pronunciation for some fantasy words, and we just got them in pickups, which is not ideal, but I had done my work. But she was on a book tour. She didn't have time to to answer my 15 words that I needed for her to tell me how to pronounce.
Jonathan: And, you know, we producers can be better about that too. And we're constantly updating our processes too, to get a lot of those pronunciations from authors, before we're even really casting sometimes. There's a way we can ways we can all help each other out and just to keep on going with it. Obviously it's no fun for everyone to have, like you just experienced, a massive amount of pickups. And where we see that happens quite a bit are inconsistencies with pronunciation patterns, mostly with character names, when there's multiple narrators on a project. We've come up with a couple different solutions here with for that at Brilliance, making sure everyone is on the same page, you know, if there's two, three, four narrators, well ahead of whoever is recording first. But it still happens. And, you know, if that consistently happens where one narrator isn't following along or collaborating well with the other narrators on the group and causing issues downstream, that's another way to ... yeah.
Jennifer: For sure, for sure. So let's say that a narrator has done one of these things. They turn in their files late because life happens, and they miss some coordination and got questions to you late, or mispronounced a bunch of things and had a whole bunch of errors that then needed to be fixed. So they've made this mistake. How can they get back in your good graces? If someone does that, what would you like to see for you to be like, "Okay, I'm willing to give this person another chance and to work with them in the future on another project"?
Jonathan: Oh, I think it's just basic accountability, you know, and in real time, if possible. If they weren't letting us know what was happening during recording, why they were late, if it's immediately after we let them know what the issue was. Just taking accountability, understanding and saying it won't happen again. You know, we're understanding and it happens unfortunately, quite a bit. Stuff happens, and there's so many new narrators out there. And we're working with new people every day. And every publisher has their own little weird way of doing things, so we're well aware of that. You know, it's sounding like there's probably a lot of narrators who are in our bad graces. And that's really not the case, actually. And I think they would be well aware if they were. So to those listening out there, you're okay. But it's still something to be aware of, you know? And while we're not actively avoiding a lot of narrators, we are definitely actively seeking narrators that we do trust and are communicative and responsible and deliver on time and do all the things we've talked about. So definitely not actively avoiding, but actively pursuing the ones we do trust.
Jennifer: That's great to know. So I would love to know how narrators can best help casting directors do their job. And specifically, are there any common misconceptions that actors and narrators have about your job? That maybe if we understood your job a little better, we'd be like, "Oh, we can help make this project run more smoothly by doing this, because now we understand what you do."
Jonathan: That's a really good question, I think I might have just touched on one because we, I don't know if this is specific to brilliance or not, but we have had, you know, some concerns from narrators. "Why haven't you worked with us or worked with me lately? You know, it's been a while." And that always really sucks to hear. And it's like I said, we are definitely not actively avoiding anyone. There's there's been a shift over the years to more authentic, authentic casting and authentic writing, or diverse writing and authentic casting, I guess, and more and more new great narrators to work with. So it's just been a mix of a lot of different things over the last few years that have just kind of shifted the landscape for a lot of narrators and making it a little bit more challenging, unfortunately, for you all.
Jennifer: Some of that goes back to what you said at the beginning, where that open email at the at the very start of the relationship, letting you know who we are in as much depth as feels appropriate, allows you to then consider us for the right kinds of projects. And diverse or authentic casting is so very important, which is a very good thing. The more that you know about who we are, the more authentically you can cast us.
Jonathan: Absolutely. And yeah, like I said, and I hope someone from Brilliance is listening. We need to get our own roster up online. So we're not manually doing a lot of these things.
Jennifer: Well, you can always send this interview to someone in your company after it's made public.
Jonathan: Oh, believe me, we're we're constantly pushing it here. But well, I guess maybe I'll turn that back on you, since you are a narrator. Because I'm not quite sure what's on narrators minds and what they might think about our job.
Jennifer: I think --- and this probably mostly comes from me coaching newer narrators, maybe not so much more experienced narrators -- but newer narrators are afraid of making a bad first impression. So that statement of having a nice, long, complete introduction right at the very beginning. I know a lot of students that I have worked with over the years who would be terrified to send that because they would feel like it would be too much, or that you wouldn't be interested, or, or, or, or. All those fears that would come in, or that you won't like their first round of demos because they're just getting started and then you'd never listen to them ever again. So that, I think, is a fear that I hear quite frequently. And then also for those regular reach outs, giving updates or sharing projects that we're enjoying again, I hear a lot of people who are just petrified of sending those. But my statement to my students when I'm working through things like that is sort of similar to some of the stuff I've already said, that the more that we share with you the projects that we are really good at and the projects that we like doing, the more you're going to be able to do your job well, because you will know, "I should consider Jennifer for these projects, but I shouldn't consider her for these because these projects are the ones she does, but not those," you know? So helping you understand what we like. In my mind, at least, you can correct me if I'm wrong, this will help you do your job better because you'll be able to cast the appropriate voice, not just in terms of identity, but in terms of interest and tone and skill level, and, you know, all of the the many things that go into an audiobook.
Jonathan: It just seems so tough to be a narrator. I'm so sorry. I think it's just there's so many different publishers out there, like I said, with different ways of wanting things done. Because I don't want new narrators to feel like they can't send that initial email with all that information. It's just the way Brilliance is currently set up right now, because if we did have like an Ahab-type setup already in place in then yeah, we wouldn't want those longer emails because we'd have that all that information hopefully in our system ready for you to input for us. And then the follow up emails and all that kind of stuff, it's just how we're currently set up. So yeah, I can imagine it's pretty tough. And I don't know if this is really off topic or not, but you mentioned something about reaching out and letting us know about certain projects. But I've noticed an increase lately of narrators suggesting titles for themselves. I notice they've done some research and have seen what Brilliance or Amazon will be releasing later in the year or next year and saying, "I love this author. I think I'd be great for this." That's been pretty interesting. It's very helpful. And I don't know if you've ever done that. I can't remember if you have or not.
Jennifer: I've not done it for Brilliance, but I've done it for a couple of Macmillan titles. Some I got, some I didn't. I've done it for maybe one Simon & Schuster and a couple Harper. So I have done it, just not with any Brilliance titles.
Jonathan: I kind of like it, you know? It doesn't work out all the time, obviously, unfortunately. But it's always nice to throw another hat in the ring or another option for the author, and definitely for someone who's obviously passionate about the project for one reason or another. And it also gets me thinking, starts to make me think about the project, even if I'm not even working on it yet. So now I have an idea of what kind of voice might be good for this. So I've seen that a lot lately, and I just wanted to mention that.
Jennifer: It's an option.
Jonathan: I would say I wouldn't go too far with it, I wouldn't be like, "Hey, here's 20 books that I just would love to narrate." But, you know, if there's someone you track and you read frequently and you honestly think you'd be good for the project, then please share.
Jennifer: That's wonderful to know. So what other pieces of advice would you have for actors and narrators who have been listening to our conversation, and who really want to be better at reaching out and forming relationships, working relationships with casting directors and producers? What what advice do you have?
Jonathan: Ooh. I guess just don't give up. You know? There's so many. We get so many of them. And it's just too bad. I just wish I could give everyone work. It's just isn't that way, you know? So, I know -- and I can't think of any names, and I don't know if I would name drop them anyway -- but, you know, there's been a few who have emailed me regularly for probably years, at certain intervals, and I finally got work for them. So it might not come at least with Brilliance right away. But if you keep up, if you stay consistent with the reach out, if you're honest, if you're working on your skill set and you're sharing titles that you're proud of. I personally am not on social media that much, but I feel like there's some narrators out there doing some really great work marketing themselves. Whenever I do go on Facebook, I see some really cool stuff out there. And that's always obviously attention grabbing. And for us, um, updating your website with your samples and your new skill sets and stuff like that. It may seem like you're never going to get a project, and the reality is you might not from a certain publisher, unfortunately, but I just wouldn't give up. Like I said, there have been some successes out there, at least with us and me personally, because I really want to give this person some work. And sometimes on the flip side, I have reached out to someone for audition after audition. Actually, I think Gail, who will be with us at the retreat, was one who was I was pushing her for numerous projects for like a year, and it just wasn't working out. And then we finally got one. And so, I guess just patience and keep with it. And it's maybe just too cliche and easy of an answer. But I just see, especially with the growth of the community in general, the competition's a little -- not a little, a lot harder -- it sounds like out there. So, it's going to take dedication and just don't give up.
Jennifer: For sure. Think of this process as a marathon, not a sprint. And like you said, it's a cliche, but it's also true. It is. It's really true.
Jonathan: Yeah. Building that foundation. There definitely is a line, and it's really hard to pinpoint where that is, over-communicating with certain publishers or people in general. It's just one of the things that bums me out about this job is that there's so many great people and there's just not enough time for everyone.
Jennifer: Not enough books out there.
Jonathan: Not enough books, not enough time, you know? And we're in a unique situation, you know, brilliance. We're West Michigan area. So we're, um. You know, obviously isolated from a lot of the community, you know, like that are in the bigger areas like LA and New York and stuff like that. So another reason why, you know, digital communications, you know, really important with us because we're not meeting people face to face. Unfortunately, as much as some people are.
Jennifer: Absolutely. Well, Jonathan, I want to turn to our final question now, which is a question that I've asked pretty much everyone I've interviewed for this podcast, just because I think it is really interesting to know what tools or resources are helpful for you as you do your creative work. So, could you share a couple tools or resources that you use in your work as a casting director that you find incredibly helpful, whether or not they might be helpful for narrators? Just what you find to help you as you do your creative work?
Jonathan: Yeah, sure. There's a lot. There's the big ones. There's Ahab, Deyan has their roster online.
Jennifer: For people who are listening who might not know, Ahab is a casting resource for audiobooks, and Deyan is another audiobook producer, but they have their roster available so that casting directors that work for other companies can access that roster and get that information. So continue.
Jonathan: Thank you. And then there's Bee Audio. They are another publisher out there, and they have a roster online. AudioFile Magazine has a search function which I use, I haven't used recently, but I used to use quite a bit. And, from there, like I mentioned earlier, I filter a lot of emails into subfolders in my email account. So I use that quite a bit. You know, audible, I usually search by author when I'm working on a new project and see what they've had in the past. just kind of get a framework. Agencies, you know, voice agencies. There's a few out there I work with regularly. If I'm kind of hung up on something or if I need something unique, I go to voice agencies quite a bit. They've been very helpful, and I found some great talent through their studios, like Deyan and others. They've been very helpful just finding new talent. Especially in specific areas of the country, if I'm looking for a voice from New Orleans, I'll reach out to a studio that I might know down there and who does the audiobook work and just kind of tug their ear a bit. There's been some really cool documents created by narrators that have been internally shared, specifically for marginalized identities. So that's been really cool. And narrators in general, I mean, the community is just great. Everyone's so willing to help. And so that's a few. I'm sure there's some I'm missing.
Jennifer: Those are really good resources. And so then taking that to the narrator perspective, make sure that you're listed on those rosters and those databases and that you keep that information up to date, which I must say is a statement for me as much as anyone else. I'm really bad at updating that information, so maybe I'll take some time over the next couple of weeks to do that.
Jonathan: And I will say, you know, I don't want to bring up the bad word of artificial intelligence. Um we're looking into some of that just for search. Just for search functionality. I don't know how accurate or if that will be helpful at all, but it might be. I guess it depends on information you're putting on your website and whatnot and where it searches from, I don't know that all that tech stuff kind of confuses me a little bit.
Jennifer: Yeah. Anyone who's listening, I do actually have an episode that I'll link in the show notes, that's about artificial intelligence and art, and the way that that intersects. There are a lot of very helpful potential uses for AI that ... [Jonathan's dog barks] That's okay. The puppy wanted to get involved.
Jonathan: At the very end. Just had to say her piece.
Jennifer: That's right, that's right. Well, Jonathan, thank you so much for your time today. I truly appreciate it. And I am overjoyed that you're going to be joining us for the Thriving Narrators Retreat in August. I can't wait to see you there in person rather than over a video screen.
Jonathan: I know, yep. Like I said, that's going to be my first, too. So I'm nervous, but very excited. And I haven't been to Cincinnati in a while, and I don't know if I still have a friend from college down there or not, but yeah, very much looking forward to it.
Jennifer: Yeah, as am I.
Jonathan: Thank you. Thank you so much.
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Thank you so much for your time and for joining me for today’s episode of the Starving Artist No More podcast. I know how valuable time is for creative entrepreneurs, and I will never take for granted that you spend time with me here, listening to this podcast. I hope this episode gave you a new understanding of the casting director’s perspective, and how you can effectively reach out and form relationships with the people who can give you work in your creative industry. If you found today’s episode helpful and informative, don’t forget to subscribe using your podcast player of choice, so that you’ll always stay aware of future episodes. And I would very much appreciate any ratings and reviews you leave for me. Especially ratings and reviews on Spotify and Apple Podcasts are super helpful in allowing new listeners to find this creative little corner of the podcast world. And if you have a creative friend or colleague who you think would be interested in today’s episode, or any episode of this podcast, please share it with them. Sharing is caring! A huge thank you today to Jonathan Pennock for taking time out of his busy schedule to share his experience and insight with me, and another huge thank you to my husband Arturo Araya, who handled all the editing of this podcast and made sure it would sound good when you listen to it. If you have any questions or comments for me, or if you’d like more information about the Thriving Narrators Retreat that’s taking place in August 2024 in Cincinnati, visit my website, www.StarvingArtistNoMore.com, where you can learn more about me, the coaching programs I offer, the upcoming retreat, and where you can reach out to me via the contact form. I’d love to hear from you.
I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again: the flow of work into your creative business is directly correlated to the flow of marketing efforts out of your creative business. But even if you accept and understand the importance of marketing in general, sometimes it’s hard to know how to most effectively do that marketing. I hope Jonathan’s casting director perspective gave you some ideas, tips, and strategies.
In many creative industries, direct reach outs and relationship-building with people who serve in “entry point” roles in the industry are vital. And in every case, open, honest communication is the key. Let your colleagues know who you are. Share the projects you’re working on that you are passionate about, and be open about the kind of work you most enjoy and most want to do. Even if you’re doing your creative work alone in your studio, treat your creative colleagues as team members and valued coworkers, even when – perhaps especially when – those colleagues are the ones hiring you for projects and giving you work. Share the creative work you love so that you’ll be top of mind when an opportunity that you’d be perfect for comes along. I can’t wait to see what you create.
